Thinking of buying a Boxster ? - MUST READ !

[southernstar]

Deye, agreed. When I was shopping for my used 986 Boxster I drove a large number of cars and found that, apart from early 2.5's which were much less torquey and flexible, the greatest difference seemed to be based not on model year, but condition. In some the steering felt more loose, the clutch engagment shuddered, there was hesitation on acceleration - all things that detracted dramatically from the driving experience.

What compares to the Boxster? As you say, not much directly. Even the Cayman is not direct competition (even though 98% of the car is the same) as the hardtop creates significantly greater torsional rigidity - as one would expect - and therefore better handling. Speaking of the Cayman, you refer to Motor Trend magazine and, while I am not really a fan, I did note that in this month's issue they gave the new Cayman a rave review and referred to the fact that they had selected the last Cayman as the wolrd's best driver's car, or some such thing, over a bunch of exotics costing way more.

Anyway, I'll check out the net in reference to your new wheels. I suspect that it wil be a total blast. Trust me, I am not anti-North American vehicles and, apart from those I have owned, have fond memories of the old Transam series, having gone to both Mosport and Watkins Glen in the early 70's to watch the 'pony cars' go at it. A friend of mine had a 1966 Shelby GT350 with posi-traction and I loved that car.

Bottom line - enjoy the new Stang!

Brad

[stephen wilson]

I think the point is lap times alone are not a true measure of "handling". Fast lap times can result from horsepower, cornering grip, or a combination. You're comparing a #3650 medium wheelbase vehicle to a #2950 short wheelbase one, guess which is going to slalom better?

I case you're wondering, I love muscle cars, I own a '65 Mustang, but not for their nimble maneuvering!

On the flip side, the Boxster could be called a bloated pig compared to an Elise!

[darknight]

Originally Posted by DEye

Hello SoutherStar,

So having that much experience with multiple cars over the years you can certainly appreciate their differences and the *endearing aspects* of each.

I try to stay away from the "Religious Crusades" but it is difficult at times, one cannot but defend the vehicle they own for the reasons they purchased it and the characteristics they have come to enjoy about cars.

- I am done here, I do hope there is a porsche in my future, but I doubt it will be a Boxster. ( my height and roll bar requirements to track the car, IMS althrough fixed in later models )
So I would appreciate my account being deleted in the interest of my no longer annoying anyone here with my non Boxster posts

So long and thanks for all the Fish,
Don

I cannot say that I have been truly annoyed by anyones post that I have read here.

We all need to drive what feels right to us and it is unfortunate that anyone is avoiding the 986/996 series due to the IMS. It takes an hour TOPS, above what you will spend replacing a clutch, to address Porsche's oversight with this motor. If you cannot afford this upgrade, then you do not have any business looking at most any sports car. These cars are not designed to the price-point of a front wheel-drive, four-banger econobox.

While there may be other brand of convertible sports cars, I cannot think of many mid-engined sports cars, let alone one that offer the experience that Porsche has engineered into these cars!

[southernstar]

Moving from Mustangs back to Porsche Boxsters, there has been some debate about the pricing of used Boxsters recently under the 'How long does it take once an IMS starts to go' and the 'Test drove a 981' threads that would probably be better here. While many others seem to disagree, I believe that the prices for good examples of 986 Boxsters (particularly early ones) may have bottomed; what is more, I believe that in the relatively near and long-term future, there is good reason to believe that they will start to go up. Herewith my top ten reasons:

1. The 986 Boxster was a seminal design for Porsche, not only because it likely saved the marque, but because a very large number of people (well beyond what Porsche had experienced before) had a positive emotional response to the design.
Indeed, Porsche recognized this early on and one need look no further than the 'Porsche 986 Boxster 'Love Story' video narrated by Patrick Stewart, to see how the car was intended to and did tug at the heart-strings of so many. It is noteworthy that Porsche has not produced a similar video for either of the subsequent iterations of the Boxster (the 987 and 981).

2. The design was a unique mix of vintage styling cues combined with completely state of the art engineering. It harkens back to the famous (or as the death car of James Dean, infamous) Porsche 550 Spyder and cannot be confused for anything else but a mid-engined Porsche. The subsequent design changes - minor cosmetic efforts to modernize in 2003, the more modern and angular 987 and the much more modern and angular (and dare I say generic) 981, have all moved further away from the historical influences of Porsche's first mid-engined car, the giant-killing 550 Spyder.

3. The car's steering, turn-in, braking and handling were all beyond reproach for a car intended to be a 'driver's car' and road tests at the time were virtually unanimous with praise. The only knock was that, while quick, the Boxster's chassis was so good that it was clearly capable of handling much more power. True enough - and Porsche in fact addressed the complaint to a significant degree with the introduction of the 2.7 Base and 3.2 'S' model in the the 2000 model year and, with slight additional increases in BHP and torque (albeit with additional weight) in the 2003 model year. Regardless, one must remember that Porsche's reputation was built upon cars that were able to compete head to head on the track with cars that had much more horsepower and torque: the 550 Spyder and its 4 cylinder engine with Maseratis, Ferraris, Jaguars and various 'specials' with American V8 engines; the early 911's and their 6 cylinder engines with various Corvettes, Sunbeam Tigers, Cobras and production based Ferraris, etc.

4. For a car that was still quite expensive ($ 39,995.00 base in 1997 with various expensive additional option packages), the numbers sold by Porsche reflected the incredible interest that it had generated. What is more, it is clear that over and above the number of purchasers, there were a great many more who lusted after one in the late 90's but could not afford the purchase price. I was one of those persons. Recently I spoke to a 27 year old who said that the 'original Boxster" was the car of his dreams when he first took interest in sports cars as a twelve year old. Is it unreasonable to assume that, since prices for good examples of early 986's are now less than many used economy cars with similar mileage, a number of those people would love to have an 'original' 986 Boxster for nostalgic reasons?

5. Since many U.S. states permit classic car registration 20 years after manufacturing date, the early 986 Boxsters are also close to attaining classic car status. For some this will enhance the image of owning an older Boxster. Indeed, I would suggest that with the introduction of the 981 Boxster, the 986 Boxster has already moved past being merely a used Porsche/the previous model of Boxster/ a dated car, to being the 'original' Porsche Boxster (as it was described by the 27 yeasr old I have already referred to). This is significant if one believes, as I do, that like the 911, the Boxster is part of Porsche's long-term plans. This distinguishes it from other entry-level Porsche's such as the 912, 914, 924 and 944 which were eliminated as models after their initial model-run. The cars will benefit from this sense of 'lineage' or 'ancestry' that also benefits the early 911's, but which did not benefit even more expensive models such as the 928.


6. Although the early 986's are now getting long in the tooth, they still present an incredible driving experience. This reputation can only be enhanced by the fact that the original 986 Boxster 2.5 has recently been chosen by the SCCA and PCA as a 'spec' racing class. For those who have forgotten about the passion that was generated by the 986, these races will act as a reminder. For others too young to have been around when they were introduced, it will create recognition of the model.

7. Many owners of classic or collectible cars love to be able to take them on road trips. Unfortunately, most early sports cars (and especially roadsters) tend to be uncomfortable and to lack sufficent luggage space for anything but an over-niter. On the other hand, the 986 had ergonomics, HVAC controls and trunk space that made it (and still make it) quite suitable for road trips: it was the first Porsche with state of the art HVAC that could defrost the interior windows (and keep them clear) in inclement weather; and, its dual trunks provide unusually large and flexible luggage space for a roadster.

8. The PCA (Porsche Club of America) has a huge membership (much larger than any other imported sports car) and puts on a large number of national and regional events, including social events, driver training, track days, car shows/judging, parts discounts, etc., etc. A 986 Boxster is a relatively cheap entre to this exclusive club and the events will prove popular to those who are interested in a collectible car.

9. In terms of a collectible car, while the fact that the 986 was produced in such large numbers will undoubtedly keep the prices from ever becoming extremely high, nevertheless:

- over the passage to time, the number of excellent examples has rapidly diminished. This is being accentuated by the fact that many who have been able to purchase these cars at low prices over the last few years, are unwilling/unable to maintain them to a high standard. While a 986 Boxster may now be priced like an economy car, it is decidedly not an ecomony car, nor are the parts and maintenance costs!

- even cars that were sold in much larger numbers than the 986 Boxster can become collectibles with appreciating values. Consdier the Mustangs from 1965 through 1970. They too were cars that brought about a strong emotional response in large numbers of people. Many who wanted but could not afford one (or were too young to buy one) at the time, have now purchased them as collectibles. Early passions die slowly, if at all. Put another way, does anyone ever forget their first love? The 986 Boxster, like the Mustang, is that kind of car.

- good parts availability. The fact that so many 986 Boxsters were built means that there will continue to be a large supply of used parts (and with lack of maintenance and the passage of time, many cars currently on the road will soon become parts cars). The large numbers also mean that many companies will continue to make replacement/reproduction parts.

10. The release of statistics by Porsche in the course of the class-action lawsuit concerning IMS bearing failures should provide some real comfort to prospective purchasers of 986 Boxsters. Unlike some of the alarmist claims on the internet (all IMS bearings will eventually fail!), it is now clear that failure is either relatively rare (in the case of the later single-row bearings at 8 - 10%) or exceedingly rare (in the case of the earlier double-row bearings at much less than 1%). Whatever impact that this has had on resale prices (and for those who have checked on the internet prior to purchase, it surely must have frightened away at least some buyers), these numbers should stop the hysteria. Lets face it, uncertainty about something that could lead to complete engine failure and potential replacement costs in excess of the value of the car can't be good for demand.

In addition, the upgraded IMS bearings that are now available (and which can be installed for very little additional labour costs over a clutch replacement) should all but eliminate this as a cause for concern for purchasers who see these as collectible cars, rather than daily drivers.

Brad

[986_inquiry]

Originally Posted by southernstar

In addition, the upgraded IMS bearings that are now available (and which can be installed for very little additional labour costs over a clutch replacement) should all but eliminate this as a cause for concern for purchasers who see these as collectible cars, rather than daily drivers.

Brad

I do need to point out that their are two "upgrades" to the IMS: the "IMS Retrofit" and "IMS Solution".

IMS Retrofit | The LN Engineering IMS Retrofit Kit for MY97-05 Porsche Boxster and 911 Models

The IMS Retrofit is an upgrade but not a fix, IMS can still occur but is much less likely. Current price for the part is $650. Porsche essentially installed this in 2006+ 987/997.

IMS Solution does away with the bearings that would fail. It's currently $1,500

Then there is the IMS Guardian which is basically a magnet on a sensor that warns you if there are metal shavings in the oil. That's currently $260-$410.

IMHO every 1997-2008 porsche owner should have at least a Guardian. I will be having one installed come next oil change, since the sensor replaced the oil plug it's best to install when oil is drained. Even with a 2006 I worry, and IMS failure is not the only reason metal may be in the oil.

[southernstar]

986inquiry, I did not say that the IMS upgrades make IMS bearing failure impossible - only that "they should all but eliminate it as a cause for concern". When one considers the relatively low failure rate of the original bearings (and extremely low in the case of the original dual-row), I stand by that comment.

With respect to the larger bearings introduced by Porsche in the 2006-2008 model year, I did not understand that they were ceramic. In any event, while there are a number of reasons that one can get metal filings in the oil, there is nothing to suggest that failure of any of these parts occurs in the engines at anything beyond normal frequencies. All engines can fail and those with poor maintenance schedules are, of course, much more likely to suffer internal failures. My point was that there is no longer a need for paranoia on the part of owners of these engines.

Brad

[southernstar]

The problem with a site such as this is that people typically only post when they have had a problem. This leads to a slanted view of the cars as a whole, particularly since the original 986 Boxsters are now between 10 and 17 years old (the 2014 MY starts production in the next month). What sort of reilability would one expect from a 10, let alone 17 year old Toyota that was driven as hard as most Porsches? Herewith my list of positves in terms of reliability/durability of the Boxster, based upon my own experience, as well as the reports reviewed on this and other sites:

1. BODY/PAINT - Porsche's fully galvanized, laser welded bodies are as rust resistant as a steel body can be made. I have yet to see a rusted 986 Porsche, even when driven on salted roads in northern climates. Most Boxsters still have their original paint and, apart from dents and stone damage, have a finish that has held up remarkably well. Compare that to Toyotas, Mazdas, Nissans etc. of the same vintage.

2. TOP - Excellent quaility German cloth tops and a well-engineered convertible top mechanism that has proven remarkably reliable compared to many other convertible tops, in spite of its complexity. Due to the numbers produced, replacement tops are readily available at low cost.

3. INTERIOR - Sometimes criticized for cheap-looking materials, even the interiors in original Boxsters have held up remarkably well over the years - especially for an interior that is often exposed to direct sunlight. Have you ever seen a cracked dash in a Boxster?

4. BRAKES - Unlike many cars where calipers need replacement with almost every brake job, the Brembo 4 piston monoblock calipers have proven to be not only very effective, but remarkably durable.

5. STEERING - Not only does it provide accuracy and incredible feedback, but few owners have had to replace rack and pinion gears, steering racks and power-steering pumps. Compare that to the frequently replaced (at over $3000.00) electric power steering units on the BMW Z3 and Z4!

TRANSMISSION/CLUTCH - Unless abused (not unusual in cars that rev high and are often shifted quickly and sometimes inexpertly), the transmissions rarely fail. Compare that to the epidemic of failures in the Chrysler minivan, which is rarely driven hard! Clutches too can last up to 200,000 miles (see Pedro, of pderosboard), even when tracked. Go for high rev starts with the big rear tires, or fail to match revs on upshifts/downshifts, and yes, you can burn them out quickly. Drive them smoothly and they tend to last for a considerable period for a performance car.

SUSPENSION - Yes, ball joints cannot be replaced separately, but in cars that are not abused/driven on very rough roads, it is common to get 80 - 100,000 miles before components need replacement. Considering the stress that the suspension gets in hard cornering with relatively stiff springs and bushings (all required for precise handling), that isn't bad!

ELECTRICAL SYSTEM - A vast improvement over earlier German cars, Boxsters rarely have failures with their charging system, instrument clusters, power top/window motors and digital HVAC controls. The only common failures not due to abuse are the ignition switch (a $35.00 part from Audi and about 1.5 hours labour) and. less frequently, the light switch (an easy, if slightly more expensive fix). The immobilizers can fail if people allow water to accumulate in the car due to poor maintenance - holes in the back window, failure to clean out the drains, leaving the top down in the rain.

COOLING SYSTEM - Remarkably good for a mid-engine design, which required radiators and fans in the front for an engine with air ducting fans in the rear. Compare the reliability with mid-engined Italian cars (including the early Fiat X-19's, not to mention Ferraris and Lambos, etc) and you'll see what I mean. Yes, some people have issues with the waterpump (although some last for over 200,000 miles with proper cooling system maintenance). Yes, coolant reservoir tanks have been known to fail, but what does one expect of a plastic piece that held extremely hot fluid under pressure for that number of years? Fortunately, neither is a terribly expensive repair and, the radiators, fans and even the hoses have proven to be remarkably reliable.

ENGINE - Apart from the A/OS (another now aged plastic piece that is relatively inexpensive to repair) AND IMS BEARINGS, these engines have also proven to be highly reliable if properly maintained. Even the IMS failure rate (much less than 1% for early dual-row bearings and 8-10% for later single-row), are not that horrible when one considers that this is regardless of age, mileage and maintenance schedule. In any event, there are fixes available.

Overall, for an old performance car that is typically driven hard, pretty good durability and reliablity IMO!

Brad

[Kurt V]

Brad that was an excellent post!

[Bryan topping]

Excellent post Brad.
I could not agree more with your analogies & comparisons.
Buying an older Porsche has some risks, but in my opinion more rewards since the experience is so worth while.
I bought my car in spite of the IMS fear mongers.
Do I think about it? Yep, but I stopped letting it wake me up at night figuring I have choices if the worst happens.

[BruceH]

Excellent post Brad! Just got back from another top down drive in the evening and absolutely love this car! Told my nephew he needs to get one when he is done with college, much better than a Corolla! Live is too short to drive a boring car. These cars, despite their faults, are an extremely good value IMO. Your points about how hard these cars are driven and yet hold up remarkably well is a point well taken. Thanks for the perspective!

[southernstar]

Members’ Rides June 2013

Above is a link to an article on the website for the Porsche Club of Americal/Upper Canada Region, from four individuals who recently purchased used 986 Boxsters (and no, I am not one of them). Somewhat interesting, IMO, as the first story refers to somoeone who had always wanted one and believed that, at the current prices, now was the time to buy (and the latter ones telling how, in effect, these cars sell themselves).

It does tend to confirm my belief that the demand for these cars will likely remain high for middle-aged people who had been interested in them (probably from the time of their introduction) and find, to their surprise, that they are now able to afford one.

Brad

[TeamOxford]

Originally Posted by southernstar

Members’ Rides June 2013

It does tend to confirm my belief that the demand for these cars will likely remain high for middle-aged people who had been interested in them (probably from the time of their introduction) and find, to their surprise, that they are now able to afford one.

Spot on, Brad.

I first discovered the Boxster concept car in a magazine article in 1992, which suggested the possibility of Porsche manufacturing it. Target price was $29,995, I believe, but I knew it would come in substantially higher than that. Might as well have been $1,000,00.00, as there was NO way I could come up with that considering our situation and the responsibilities we had at the time.

Fast forward 20 years, and the very popular Boxster (I think over 243,00 units have been sold) is now available at a very reasonable price. And many of the examples for sale are in very good to pristine shape.

So yes, we middle-aged boomers are enjoying the heck out of these fine automobiles that at one time seemed completely out of reach.

TO

[southernstar]

TO, I was in the same situation. Fell in love with the car but was unable to afford one at the time due to family obligations. Sometimes it's not so bad getting older!

Brad

[TeamOxford]

Originally Posted by southernstar

Sometimes it's not so bad getting older!

I've been waiting my whole life to get old!

TO

[gingerboy1000]

I am looking at buying my first Boxster and wanted to know if there were any recommended used dealers in the UK apart from main Porsche dealers that is.

cheers

[Steve Tinker]

Ginger....
Go out and buy a copy of "911&Porsche World" magazine - there are quite a few Porsche specialis listed. Just pick a couple of businesses close to where you live and go from there.....

[southernstar]

gingerboy, I can't speak to where you are, but regardless of the reputation of the dealer or whether you buy privately, GET A PPI, preferably from an experienced Porsche mechanic who has no connection with the car. You are also much more likely to get maintenance records from a private vendor and that is also extremely important.

Good luck with your search!

Brad

[Kapua]

i was in the same boat as the thread starter but after reading this im much more informed about how to have my porche appraised and priced. thanks guys you might of saved me lots of money..

[recycledsixtie]

Congrats to any would be owners who are thinking about buying a Boxster and reading this thread. I got a PPI done before I bought my car. A more in depth PPI I believe is required.

The basic PPI does not include the following but I and am sure a bunch of others would agree and some have suggested the following in addition:

- remove oil filter to check for metal
- drop oil pan to check for metal
- a leak down test
This list is not all inclusive.

My experience after 2 years of ownership is that the Boxster is the most fun car I have driven in my life. However it comes at a price. I do not think that it is a durable car in terms of some components. There is always the possibility of IMS failure. Have had CV joints refurbished, idler arm replaced and if I keep the car long enough wheel bearings replacement. This is on a car with only 40k miles. My car is a Boxster base 2001.

Before you buy this car you have to ask yourself if you should have enough $$$ in the bank to budget for a failed engine plus 'normal maintenance' of about $2k a year.....Hope this helps!You cannot run a Boxster for the same cost as a Miata.

[southernstar]

Recycledsixtie, I agree totally with your recommendations in terms of the PPI - although I do not believe it is necessary to have the oil pan removed (especially if it has a magnetic drain plug) unless the oil had just been changed.

Turning to the components you mention. In two years of ownership, apart from maintenance (oil/filter every 5-8000 km, replacement of the serpentine belt and windshield wiper blades), my only repair has been replacement of the ignition switch (a $35.00 Audi part and 1.4 hours of labour). I too have budgeted $2000.00 for annual maintenance and thus far I have banked a great deal of that amount for potential future problems.

The CV joints are typically more problematic in the S (more extreme shaft angles) and it would seem that most people with a base Boxster are able to go in excess of 100,000 miles before they need replacement. Were the boots ripped at all at any point, to your knowledge? Wheel bearing replacement at such low mileage also seems a bit unusual, but whether or not those problems are typical, you are correct - your maintenance costs aren't going to mirror that of the much cheaper (and much poorer performing) Maxda MX5 Miata.

Brad