ROW M030 and H&R Springs suspension questions - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

thenavarro · 03-25-2007, 08:55 AM

My 2001 is primarily my daily driver and I do use it occasionally for the track. My primary motivation for wanting to lower it, is for the cosmetic looks, but I also don't want to cause any unreasonable wear and tear on other parts of the car by doing this, and I would enjoy the handling offered by a better suspension.

In my researching the subject, it appears that many have been pleased with the ROW M030 option available from Sunset for about $920.00. I understand it has a good impact on handling and is the "factory" option for a better all around suspension. It also lowers the vehicle, but not as low as the H&R Springs.

I also understand that many are happy with the appearance, by just installing H&R Springs which lowers the car approximately 1 inch in front and rear, but that this might cause suspension issues on the track.

I don't want adjustable coilovers so that's not an option for me.

Thus, I was considering a combination of H&R springs along with the rest of the ROW M030 option (in other words, buying the ROW M030 option and replacing the springs that come with it with H&R). My questions are:

1) Is this feasible?
2) I believe (at least in my non-mechanical and engineering mind) that this will give me the combination I'm looking for, better looks from lowering an inch, and better handling by having the rest of the ROW M030 suspension components. Is this correct?
3) Are these parts compatible?
4) Is it a stupid idea?
5) Do the springs that come with the ROW M030 option have resale value that I will be able to obtain some of my $$ back?

I've purchased the H&R springs already, just want to be sure before I order the ROW M030 option. If the combination doesn't sound like a good idea, then I'll have to decide between just going with the lowering springs, or selling them and going with the full ROW M030 suspension. Take care,

Mike

blue2000s · 03-25-2007, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenavarro

My 2001 is primarily my daily driver and I do use it occasionally for the track. My primary motivation for wanting to lower it, is for the cosmetic looks, but I also don't want to cause any unreasonable wear and tear on other parts of the car by doing this, and I would enjoy the handling offered by a better suspension.

In my researching the subject, it appears that many have been pleased with the ROW M030 option available from Sunset for about $920.00. I understand it has a good impact on handling and is the "factory" option for a better all around suspension. It also lowers the vehicle, but not as low as the H&R Springs.

I also understand that many are happy with the appearance, by just installing H&R Springs which lowers the car approximately 1 inch in front and rear, but that this might cause suspension issues on the track.

I don't want adjustable coilovers so that's not an option for me.

Thus, I was considering a combination of H&R springs along with the rest of the ROW M030 option (in other words, buying the ROW M030 option and replacing the springs that come with it with H&R). My questions are:

1) Is this feasible?
2) I believe (at least in my non-mechanical and engineering mind) that this will give me the combination I'm looking for, better looks from lowering an inch, and better handling by having the rest of the ROW M030 suspension components. Is this correct?
3) Are these parts compatible?
4) Is it a stupid idea?
5) Do the springs that come with the ROW M030 option have resale value that I will be able to obtain some of my $$ back?

I've purchased the H&R springs already, just want to be sure before I order the ROW M030 option. If the combination doesn't sound like a good idea, then I'll have to decide between just going with the lowering springs, or selling them and going with the full ROW M030 suspension. Take care,

Mike

You can buy the individual parts of the ROW M030 kit. You don't have to buy the springs if you don't intend to use them.

For me, the M030 lowered the car to a really nice level. It looks great. Any lower and I'd be scraping the chin of the car on driveways and rain gutters anyway.

MNBoxster · 03-25-2007, 09:23 AM

Hi,

No offense, but if you already bought the H&R Springs, what's the point in asking questions now?

Merely swapping Springs in a Willy-Nilly fashion to lower the Car will result in altering the Suspension Geometry, which can lead to compromised handling and possible excessive component wear, including the Tires.

The ROW M030 Kit is designed by Porsche, in it's entirety, to preserve, or even enhance, the Handling and Suspension Geometry.

The Springs in this kit were selected specifically to add to this system through proper Material Composition, Spring Height, Spring Rate, # and orientation of the Coils, etc.

These Springs are a Major component of the Overall System. If you change these, you will alter the System and most likely it's Geometry and Handling characteristics right along with it - The exact things you're hoping to avoid.

It would be impossible, without both extensive Bench and Field Testing, to ascertain whether the System will be excessively negatively compromised, by switching the Springs. It all may seem OK at first, only to find out that Control is lost at the edge (or under certain conditions at the edge), or that 3k mi. later, your Tires are Bald.

Porsche puts a lot of engineering and testing into it's performance upgrades. Expertise which is derived from thousands of hours, and years of acquired experience in accumulated testing, not to mention, large amounts of cash. It's naive to assume that one can casually out-engineer them, or a combination of ignorance, arrogance and dumb luck. Which is not often the case.

Were it me, I'd skip the H&R Springs and just go with the ROW 030 kit in it's entirety - as it was designed, for the reasons stated. You, of course, can heed or ignore this advice as you choose. Good Luck!...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

MNBoxster · 03-25-2007, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue2000s

You can buy the individual parts of the ROW M030 kit. You don't have to buy the springs if you don't intend to use them.

For me, the M030 lowered the car to a really nice level. It looks great. Any lower and I'd be scraping the chin of the car on driveways and rain gutters anyway.

Hi,

Yes, you can buy them individually. But, this individual component availability is intended as replacement parts, not to assemble your own version of the System. That's a Crap Shoot...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

blinkwatt · 03-25-2007, 10:01 AM

Depends....Are they the 5spd RoW M030 springs, if so I could help you out there. Did Sunset quote you $920 for the whole RoW M030(shocks/springs and bars)kit? If so that's a darn good price,Suncoast quoted me @ $999 + $60 for shipping yesterday.

thenavarro · 03-25-2007, 11:30 AM

Responses in quote below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

No offense, but if you already bought the H&R Springs, what's the point in asking questions now?

Hi Jim, No offense taken. Yes, I have already purchased H&R Springs, but that doesn't mean that I"ve made my mind up on which direction to go. I'm asking the questions BEFORE I purchase the most expensive parts, the ROW M030. As it stands now, if I decide to only do the ROW M030 without the H&R Springs, then I can easily sell them and recoup probably all but 20-25 dollars of my purchase price. If I decide to lower the car only and not do the ROW M030 setup, then I've already got the springs I want. If I decide to do the combination, then I've already got the springs I want. Thus, the point in asking questions now, is to try and gather opinions to assist me in making my choice.

Merely swapping Springs in a Willy-Nilly fashion to lower the Car will result in altering the Suspension Geometry, which can lead to compromised handling and possible excessive component wear, including the Tires.

Potential agreement here, but probably what I should have asked, is will the excessive component wear be worse with the standard suspension or with the ROW M030 suspension. I wear out tires pretty fast as it is, I'm more concerned with the wear of the actual suspension hardward.

The ROW M030 Kit is designed by Porsche, in it's entirety, to preserve, or even enhance, the Handling and Suspension Geometry.

The Springs in this kit were selected specifically to add to this system through proper Material Composition, Spring Height, Spring Rate, # and orientation of the Coils, etc.

These Springs are a Major component of the Overall System. If you change these, you will alter the System and most likely it's Geometry and Handling characteristics right along with it - The exact things you're hoping to avoid.

It would be impossible, without both extensive Bench and Field Testing, to ascertain whether the System will be excessively negatively compromised, by switching the Springs. It all may seem OK at first, only to find out that Control is lost at the edge (or under certain conditions at the edge), or that 3k mi. later, your Tires are Bald.

Porsche puts a lot of engineering and testing into it's performance upgrades. Expertise which is derived from thousands of hours, and years of acquired experience in accumulated testing, not to mention, large amounts of cash. It's naive to assume that one can casually out-engineer them, or a combination of ignorance, arrogance and dumb luck. Which is not often the case.

I agree with the majority of this. However, I do not believe that Porsche is the "end all" voice on the components or creative use of components on their cars. We are all aware that the Boxster could have been made a much better car by their engineers, but that Porsche did not want to have the Boxster directly competing against its vaunted flagship the 911. Also, I'm not trying to out-engineer them as they were not trying to achieve the same goal as I am. I want a car that looks better in my eyes by being lowered even more than the ROW M030 option, but handles better than the base model. A compromise that the factory may not have been willing to make on thousands of cars, but one that I would be on my ONE if I'm not jeopardizing something major along the way. However, as you point out, if it came down to losing control at the edge, that's not something I'm willing to risk although I may never be at that edge in my lifetime. In your opinion, would my combo suspension not handle as well as the base suspension?? What if its taken to the edge?

I've done my fair share of "ignorance", I can admit to having "arrogance", and fortunately, I've had my fair share of "dumb luck", but most "dumb luck" experiences can largely by attributed to making decisions that put me in a place to have that "dumb luck", willing to take chances that others would not, the risk/reward payback, etc.

Were it me, I'd skip the H&R Springs and just go with the ROW 030 kit in it's entirety - as it was designed, for the reasons stated. You, of course, can heed or ignore this advice as you choose. Good Luck!...

Thanks, I'm just trying to figure out if this sounds doable or if there is evidence that my idea is all wrong. I appreciate your opinions and you make a lot of valid points. Take care,

Mike

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

thenavarro · 03-25-2007, 11:37 AM

Hi Blinkwatt,

The $920.00 is the price that I've read that they sell the whole ROW MO30 setup for, including shocks, springs and bars. I"m going to call them and see what they will charge me for the kit without the springs, and the kit with the springs. IF I DECIDE TO DO THE COMBO SUSPENSION and I buy the whole kit, I'll let you know.

Take care,
Mike

Quote:

Originally Posted by blinkwatt

Depends....Are they the 5spd RoW M030 springs, if so I could help you out there. Did Sunset quote you $920 for the whole RoW M030(shocks/springs and bars)kit? If so that's a darn good price,Suncoast quoted me @ $999 + $60 for shipping yesterday.

thomschoon · 03-25-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blinkwatt

Depends....Are they the 5spd RoW M030 springs, if so I could help you out there. Did Sunset quote you $920 for the whole RoW M030(shocks/springs and bars)kit? If so that's a darn good price,Suncoast quoted me @ $999 + $60 for shipping yesterday.

You might take the price to your local dealer and see if they will price match and save yourself the freight, it worked for me as they all pay the same price for the parts. The kit is a single part number and comes rather poorly packed in a large box so I doubt there would be any discount for ordering without the springs as the struts are already assembled, good luck though as you never know what changes they can make and asking is free.

blinkwatt · 03-25-2007, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomschoon

You might take the price to your local dealer and see if they will price match and save yourself the freight, it worked for me as they all pay the same price for the parts. The kit is a single part number and comes rather poorly packed in a large box so I doubt there would be any discount for ordering without the springs as the struts are already assembled, good luck though as you never know what changes they can make and asking is free.

DOES ANYONE KNOW THE PART # FOR THE WHOLE ROW KITS?

aren040 · 03-26-2007, 02:23 PM

Hey guys,

I also have a question about the ROW kit. First of all how much does the ROW kit lower the car? I was under the impression that it was about an inch anyway. Also the ROW kit that all of you are asking about, does it come specific for the Base model or the S? If I remember correctly there was a member here that had stated to get the ROW Base rear sway bar because it was thicker than the S rear sway bar. He also stated to get the S front sway bar as it was thicker than the base front sway bar for the ROW M030.

Also, if anyone has a picture of their 987 or 986 with the ROW kit on I would appreciate seeing it.

Thank you,

-aren

blinkwatt · 03-26-2007, 05:18 PM

First of all how much does the ROW kit lower the car?

It depends on your model,I CONFIRMED THAT THE 5SPD ROW KIT IS ONLY $922 FROM SUNSET IMPORTS!!!!!!I'M DEFIANETELY TRYING TO HAVE THAT INSTALLED BY SUMMER TIME!

I was under the impression that it was about an inch anyway.

20mm drop in the front,10mm drop in the rear after it settles.

Also the ROW kit that all of you are asking about, does it come specific for the Base model or the S?

Yes it is specific pending on engine & tranny.

He also stated to get the S front sway bar as it was thicker than the base front sway bar for the ROW M030.

The front 5spd RoW sway bar and base 'S' sway bar are the same part.

thenavarro · 03-26-2007, 06:39 PM

Blinkwatt,
I worked too late to call them today. What are they charging for shipping?

Thanks,

Mike

blinkwatt · 03-26-2007, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenavarro

Blinkwatt,
I worked too late to call them today. What are they charging for shipping?

Thanks,

Mike

$50-70 ranging on your zip code so either way that is GREAT price on a whole suspension kit!

aren040 · 03-27-2007, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blinkwatt

First of all how much does the ROW kit lower the car?

It depends on your model,I CONFIRMED THAT THE 5SPD ROW KIT IS ONLY $922 FROM SUNSET IMPORTS!!!!!!I'M DEFIANETELY TRYING TO HAVE THAT INSTALLED BY SUMMER TIME!

I was under the impression that it was about an inch anyway.

20mm drop in the front,10mm drop in the rear after it settles.

Also the ROW kit that all of you are asking about, does it come specific for the Base model or the S?

Yes it is specific pending on engine & tranny.

He also stated to get the S front sway bar as it was thicker than the base front sway bar for the ROW M030.

The front 5spd RoW sway bar and base 'S' sway bar are the same part.

Thanks for clearing some of that up. But for the Sway bars I was under the impression to get the ROW Front bar for the S and get the ROW rear bar for the Base. Apparently in the ROW system the Base kit has a bigger rear sway than the S kit, but the S kit has a bigger front sway than the Base kit. I hope that helped clear up a few things.

-aren

insite · 03-27-2007, 11:43 AM

hi. i have the RoW (purchased from Sunset). i have also messed with Boxsters riding on Eibachs or H&R's. in my opinion, both the Eibach and the H&R lower the car too much, ESPECIALLY if you have an aftermarket nose (i.e. GT3). i have the GT3 nose with the M030 RoW; my front ground clearance is 3.8". that is not much.

additionally, the ride height on H&R or Eibach is so low as to prevent proper geometry / camber settings without additional parts (particularly in the rear). your rear tires will toe out too far to wear (or drive) properly. you will need GT3 or Fabcar shimmable control arms and a set of Tarett toe steer arms if you want to correct this. we're talking well over a grand for this stuff.

now, the H&R aren't as bad as the Eibach. the Eibach are WAY low, whereas the H&R are ALMOST alignable, but still too low for nice aftermarket bumpers. with Eibach, the tires actually sit within the fenders (no visible gap at all). another issue with both the Eibach and H&R has to do with wedge; the Eibach and H&R lower the car evenly (i think) whereas the RoW lowers the car more in front. this dials out some of the factory understeer present in the base car. the aftermarket guys don't give you this benefit.

my opinion? go with the M030. get the S front sway and the base rear sway (this will cost slightly more as the S sway is about $50 more than the base). also, if you want more performance, consider going with Bilstein Sport struts ($800 from shox.com) rather than the factory M030 dampers; they're more aggressively valved. FYI, the M030 without the dampers from sunset is around $350, giving a total of $1150 with the Bilstein dampers.

don't forget to align it right! front camber should be -.6 for slow, -1.0 for spirited and -1.6 for aggressive. rear camber should be -1.8 or -1.9 no matter what. run zero toe up front and a little toe in on the rear.

i'll post some pics of Eibach vs. RoW when i get home so you can visually see what i'm talking about. i don't have pics of the H&R handy. anyone?

insite · 03-27-2007, 01:58 PM

ok, the one on the left is my M030. the one on the right is Eibach. i wish i had a better close up shot, but this is it (taken from Talladega Grand Prix last Thursday).

thenavarro · 03-27-2007, 05:17 PM

Everyone,

Thanks for all the opinions. I've about decided to do just ROW M030 setup and sell the H&R Springs. I'll give a review once I have everything rolling.

Take care,

Mike

blinkwatt · 03-27-2007, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenavarro

Everyone,

Thanks for all the opinions. I've about decided to do just ROW M030 setup and sell the H&R Springs. I'll give a review once I have everything rolling.

Take care,

Mike

Right on! I bet your decision will prove right in the long run and performance wise. I'm not even going to mix and match 'S' shocks w/ RoW gear,I'm going straight to RoW like you.

Good Luck!

98Boxster98 · 03-27-2007, 08:14 PM

Mike -

Are you using Ruf Auto Centre for the install? That would be cool if they install parts purchased elsewhere.

thenavarro · 03-28-2007, 03:55 PM

Hi 98 Boxster 98,

Yes, I use Ruf for all my maintenance and any swaps I want to make that I'm not comfortable doing myself. They are cool with installing parts, pieces etc. that I bring in. Hans and Wayne are great guys there to work with. If you go, tell them Mike from Waxahachie sent you! Take care,

Mike