Daddy Like...!!

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by dcporsche99

Hey Jim,

Very nice! I'm sure knowing the CEO made it just a tad easier? LOL

Hi,

Not really. You had to know Arnie, he was really into all things Lotus, even for the years when Lotus was only producing selling fewer than 2000 cars worldwide.

If it weren't for Arnie, the Elise would have never come to America. He had to convince Lotus that adding the Toyota Engine for EPA cert would mean that he could sell this car here. The Elise was introduced in '96, but only came here as an '05 model.

I've even seen Arnie roll up his sleeves and help an owner install some engine parts he bought and picked up in the back parking lot of Lotus USA's Ofcs.

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[dcporsche99]

That's nice knowing the head honcho! You really get a handle of the history and the future, for that matter, of the car from the ground up! Very cool! More suprising to me, is your account of him actually going back to a grassroots mentality-- rolling up his sleeves and helping out! Again, not something you hear about anymore these days! Well, he seems like a guy who earns his respect rather than demands it! I can certainly respect that! Good to hear!!

[Perfectlap]

great cars

but this is the Lotus I always wanted to track (they claim 0-60 in 2.9)

http://www.dupontregistry.com/autos/Search/DRauSearchDetails.aspx?itemid=355974



or the original Chapman "Miata"

Elan

[porsche986spyder]

I love the look of that car, but for the price and the fact that the engine is actually nothing more than a 1.8 Ltr 4 cylinder, Toyota Celica GTS engine is very disapointing and over rated. I found out this unfortunate news after I saw one up close. It only has 190Hp! The power to whieght ratio is great, but it still needs more power in my opinion and for the price of a Lotus, they should be able to put a turbo in there.

For those of you who don't belive that its nothing more than a Toyota Celica GTS engine go to this web site.
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/toyota.html

Or this one.
http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/060402.html

[dcporsche99]

They are both mean looking rides! I agree that the Exige below...without the steroids (S).... 2.9 sec 0-60 is still crazzzy! But, I still cannot imagine what that would feel like!! Despite the fact that it has a Toyota engine...it's still pretty remarkable!

As far as the little Miata, I am sure that would be a trip to drive as well...but for different reasons!

[Bavarian Motorist]

Originally Posted by porsche986spyder

I love the look of that car, but for the price and the fact that the engine is actually nothing more than a 1.8 Ltr 4 cylinder, Toyota Celica GTS engine is very disapointing and over rated. I found out this unfortunate news after I saw one up close. It only has 190Hp! The power to whieght ratio is great, but it still needs more power in my opinion and for the price of a Lotus, they should be able to put a turbo in there.

For those of you who don't belive that its nothing more than a Toyota Celica GTS engine go to this web site.
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/toyota.html

Or this one.
http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/060402.html

What car you talking about? The 2-11 is 252bhp.



The regular Lotus Elise is 190hp which is...a lot.


You have to realize this is not a drag car. It's a sports car.



As a Boxster owner, you should understand this better than anyone.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by porsche986spyder

I love the look of that car, but for the price and the fact that the engine is actually nothing more than a 1.8 Ltr 4 cylinder, Toyota Celica GTS engine is very disapointing and over rated. I found out this unfortunate news after I saw one up close. It only has 190Hp! The power to whieght ratio is great, but it still needs more power in my opinion and for the price of a Lotus, they should be able to put a turbo in there.

For those of you who don't belive that its nothing more than a Toyota Celica GTS engine go to this web site.
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/toyota.html

Or this one.
http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/060402.html

Hi,

You are really talking beyond your experience. The Engine is sourced by Toyota, but with a Lotus Head and Lotus ECU, it is not the same as the Celica GTS.

So far as adding a Turbo, again you don't get it. A Naturally Aspirated car drives better than a Forced one. It is preferable from that standpoint.

Most Forced Induction cars have split personalities - On Boost and Off Boost. This can be very disconcerting in the Twisties at the Apex or on a Track.

In fact, Lotus Engineering did a lot of engineering on this engine for Toyota back in the '90's when they used to frequently burn up the Crank Bearings. Lotus redesigned the Oiling system, and the Bearings. Added an Oil Cooler, and the engine gained 10HP and became instantly as bulletproof as anything else coming out of the Motomachi plant.

I only wish the Boxster Engine had Toyota reliability...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[porsche986spyder]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

You are really talking beyond your experience. The Engine is sourced by Toyota, but with a Lotus Head and Lotus ECU, it is not the same as the Celica GTS.

So far as adding a Turbo, again you don't get it. A Naturally Aspirated car drives better than a Forced one. It is preferable from that standpoint.

Most Forced Induction cars have split personalities - On Boost and Off Boost. This can be very disconcerting in the Twisties at the Apex or on a Track.

In fact, Lotus Engineering did a lot of engineering on this engine for Toyota back in the '90's when they used to frequently burn up the Crank Bearings. Lotus redesigned the Oiling system, and the Bearings. Added an Oil Cooler, and the engine gained 10HP and became instantly as bulletproof as anything else coming out of the Motomachi plant.

I only wish the Boxster Engine had Toyota reliability...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Whatever, the engine block is still a Toyota. Look at the links I posted. My brother has a Toyota Celica GTS and the Lotus even has the Toyota stamp on the block. Its not visible when you pop the hood, but its still on there. I never said the entire engine was made by Toyota. Thats why I posted those links, did you even look at them? My point was that for the price you pay for the Regular Lotus Elis it is still underpowered. All those other exotic sports cars out there and Lotus could not put an engine in the car that could break the 250hp mark? To expensive of a car to pay for and only get 190hp. All show and no go. As for tubos, there is nothing wrong with the drivability on the track or off. Look at the cars that are famous for track records. Most have turbos. Subaru WRX, Dodge Neon SRT-4, Mitsubishi Eclipse GT or GSX, etc...I'm sure there are some turbo Porsches in there too.

[Perfectlap]

well the one thing you are not taking into account is that the very religion of Lotus racing was to make cars as light as possible. Deliberately putting modest power in their cars was a way of demonstrating that if the car itself was properly designed and a REAL HONEST effort was made to make the cars as light as possible(Unlike Porsche who put in Sunroofs in the 911 GT3's now) there would be no need put in a huge engine...the same religion as the pure roadster one.

At 190 hp the car is not underpowered because its light weight. Car magazines have convinced you into believing that a BARELY two tons car needs at least 250 hp. That simply isn't true. Go for a ride on the track with an experienced driver where you are going 10/10's for a full lap and you will NOT be saying 190 hp is not enough. The car only requires more power if its going to weigh more or compete on the track against cars that have a power to weight ration better than theirs. Since the Elise is intended to be a fun car and not a donor car for spec racing like 911 GT3, then a 1.8 serves its purpose more than adequately as the average driver will have his hands more than full with 190 hp on barely two tons.
Like the 73 911 RS that won overall at LeMans (not just class!!) and that thing only had a 2.7 with barely 215 HP.

Now whether or not $50K is a fair price for an Elise is another question altogether. Very few sports cars are classifieds as worth their price. If the ELise had a more exotic and powerful engine in it you would be paying WAY more than you can get it for today...which would limit the buyer pool even further. Lotus has to sell at least some of their cars! And I'm just guessing but I doubt their profit (if they even have one) is not coming from the engine area, more like because of the lower cost Japanese engines they are able to reduce their expenses as a boutique car builder. Believe it or not they did you favor putting in a Celica engine...Low Maintenace and racing/track engines are not really terms that go hand and hand. Good on the Lotus managers for taking matters into their own hands and just dumping the Celica engine in the car without waiting for either Lotus or Toyota corporate dudes to approve it. Sometimes you just have to take matters into your own hands.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by porsche986spyder

Whatever, the engine block is still a Toyota. Look at the links I posted. My brother has a Toyota Celica GTS and the Lotus even has the Toyota stamp on the block. Its not visible when you pop the hood, but its still on there. I never said the entire engine was made by Toyota. Thats why I posted those links, did you even look at them? My point was that for the price you pay for the Regular Lotus Elis it is still underpowered. All those other exotic sports cars out there and Lotus could not put an engine in the car that could break the 250hp mark? To expensive of a car to pay for and only get 190hp. All show and no go. As for tubos, there is nothing wrong with the drivability on the track or off. Look at the cars that are famous for track records. Most have turbos. Subaru WRX, Dodge Neon SRT-4, Mitsubishi Eclipse GT or GSX, etc...I'm sure there are some turbo Porsches in there too.

Hi,

Again, your criteria is only for Horsepower. The engine provides enough power/torque for some very respectable numbers as is and an NA engine is more reliable, last longer, uses less fuel and it is more linear - more Driveable.

So what if the motor says Toyota? Toyota makes great engines. Lots of high-end Sports Cars use engines from other manufacturers - the McLaren F1 uses a BMW motor...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Perfectlap]

McLaren wishes it had a BMW engine...instead it uses a woefuly unreliable and not-quiet Merecedes-- Ilmor. BMW has its own team now after buying Peter Sauber's team...don't get me started on McLaren those guys sure know how to waste billions(literraly) and not win championships going on 8 years in a row.


p.s. (historical note)
on lighter/less power v. more power/heavier cars...Ferrari established themselves in F1 using this approach at the 1951 British Grand Prix. Fangio's Alfa Romeo had more power but was heavier and consumed more gas so he had to stop more/longer for fuel giving Froilan Gonzales and Enzo Ferrari a historic win.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

McLaren wishes it had a BMW engine...instead it uses a woefuly unreliable and not-quiet Merecedes-- Ilmor. BMW has its own team now after buying Peter Sauber's team...don't get me started on McLaren those guys sure know how to waste billions(literraly) and not win championships going on 8 years in a row.


p.s. (historical note)
on lighter/less power v. more power/heavier cars...Ferrari established themselves in F1 using this approach at the 1951 British Grand Prix. Fangio's Alfa Romeo had more power but was heavier and consumed more gas so he had to stop more/longer for fuel giving Froilan Gonzales and Enzo Ferrari a historic win.

Hi,

Sorry, wasn't clear enough I guess - the Mclaren F1 uses a BMW V-12 motor.

But, you are absolutely correct about Lotus Doctrine of being as lightweight as possible. This stemmed from their Racing Philosophy that a Larger Engine weighed more, burned more fuel, so you had to have a larger fuel capacity which weighed even more and this all but negated the extra HP to begin with.

Colin Chapman's famous quote: "If you want it to go Faster - add Lightness"

This philosophy worked well. Lotus, not Ferrari, has the greatest number of Formula One Wins as a % to Starts. Ferrari has the greatest total number of F1 wins, but not as a % of Starts - that Crown belongs to Lotus (for a regular Constructor).

Chapman didn't want any excess capacity (= weight) in his cars at all. He wanted them all to die on the Victory Lap. There are numerous examples of where they didn't quite calculate this correctly, because Lotus also has the greatest number of DNFs in F1 when leading on the Final Lap...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[porsche986spyder]

I like the Noble GTO. It looks cool and is very light too. Not so crazy about the big wing on the back. Seen them on the speed chanel. They are all hand made. Engine block is made from a Ford Turus V6, but is twin turbo. The 2968cc, twin-turbocharged V6 used in both Noble models is transversely mounted in front of the rear axle, directly behind the cabin. It features four valves per cylinder and double overhead cams to each bank of cylinders. The all-alloy engine is heavily modified from standard, with many bespoke components fitted during build. It produces 352bhp (357PS) at 6200rpm, and is redlined at 7200rpm.

On the road, 350lb ft (475Nm) of torque produced between 3500 and 5000rpm makes the car immensely flexible and easy to drive. Even at 3000rpm, the engine is producing 80 per cent of its available torque. There’s also very little lag from the twin Garret T25, water-cooled turbochargers, meaning a particularly linear response throughout the rev-range. The turbochargers run a maximum 0.7 bar of boost and are equipped with an air to air intercooler, centrally mounted at the rear of the car.

The car only weighs 2400bls.


Noble M12 GTO-3R
Vehicle type: mid-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 2-passenger, 2-door coupe
Price as tested: $76,400 (base price*: $76,400)
Engine type: twin-turbocharged and intercooled DOHC 24-valve V-6, aluminum block and heads, port fuel injection
Displacement 181 cu in, 2967cc
Power (SAE net) 360 bhp @ 6200 rpm
Torque (SAE net) 358 lb-ft @ 3500 rpm
Transmission 6-speed manual
Wheelbase 96.0 in
Length/width/height 161.0/74.2/45.0 in
Curb weight 2457 lb
Zero to 60 mph 3.3 sec
Zero to 100 mph 8.1 sec
Zero to 150 mph 26.6 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph 3.9 sec
Standing 1/4-mile 11.8 sec @ 118 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph 167 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad 1.00 g
*Base price includes all performance-enhancing options.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by porsche986spyder

I like the Noble GTO.

Hi,

Noble makes an excellent car, but personally, I prefer the M400 to the M12...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Chapman didn't want any excess capacity (= weight) in his cars at all. He wanted them all to die on the Victory Lap. There are numerous examples of where they didn't quite calculate this correctly, because Lotus also has the greatest number of DNFs in F1 when leading on the Final Lap...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

yes he wanted his car to die and his drivers didn't want to die in them!
He made them so light that they came apart and were suspect in the crash worthy department, even by the abysmal safety standards before this ultra safe era of long/narrow cars with huge crumple zones, onboard fire extinguishers,etc.

[Adam]

[QUOTE=porsche986spyder] My point was that for the price you pay for the Regular Lotus Elis it is still underpowered. All those other exotic sports cars out there and Lotus could not put an engine in the car that could break the 250hp mark? To expensive of a car to pay for and only get 190hp. All show and no go. QUOTE]

As mentioned earlier, it is power to weight that makes a good sports car. A 190 hp lotus Elise is as fast if not faster than a new 295 hp boxster S from 0-60 and it handles better. The car will blow your boxster into the weeds without even breaking a sweat. Granted, the boxster S is faster in the 100mph plus realm, but in real track duty that makes little difference.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

yes he wanted his car to die and his drivers didn't want to die in them!
He made them so light that they came apart and were suspect in the crash worthy department, even by the abysmal safety standards before this ultra safe era of long/narrow cars with huge crumple zones, onboard fire extinguishers,etc.

Hi,

That's not true, when I said Die, I meant mechanical failures - engine, gearbox.

Lotus were as robust on the track as any others, in fact safer than some what with the 1st monocoque chassis (Lotus 25), 1st mid-engined car (Lotus 18), Lotus 49 - 1st to have the engine as a stressed part of the chassis, Lotus 56 - the 1st Turbine powered Race Car - the STP Special (Indy), Lotus 60 - 1st mid-engine 4 wheel drive Race Car, Lotus 72 - 1st Aerodynamic Car, .

True Jochen Rindt died in a crash when a Brake shaft broke - common and not one of Chapman's lightened parts. Jim Clark was killed driving a Lotus at Hockenheim in a non-championship Formula Two event, but was attributed to tire failure, not a fault of the driver or the car...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99