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Old 11-05-2013, 09:03 AM   #157
JFP in PA
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: It's a kind of magic.....
Posts: 6,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
I'm still at a loss as to why people question the benefit of properly lubricating a ball bearing... Yes, the DOF system is a new product and doesn't have thousands of installs, but the SCIENCE that it is based on is old and well proven. So why question it so much? Sorry for being so blunt, but I think it's time to call it like it is... I personally discount most of what LN Engineering and Jake Raby have said regarding lubrication not being the issue because Jake has made it very clear that he is out for blood in a fierce competition here. He's looking to crush alternative products. If there is real science that he wants to share to add to the discussion of lubrication, then add it. Instead we get vague responses about our AOS maybe failing...

I think the whole story on the importance of proper lubrication has changed. The IMS Retrofit website has been updated to sternly warn against direct oil lubrication now. Their UK distributor website hasn't been updated/changed yet though and it is very, very clear throughout - poor lubrication is the key contributor to the IMS failures.

PORSCHE Intermediate shaft upgrade kit for PORSCHE BOXSTER ENGINE 986 AND PORSCHE 911 996 ENGINE

The failure differences between single row 6204, double row, and single row 6305 bearings seem obvious to me. Without the proper lubrication what kind of problem are you going to have? Accelerated wear. Now if you have more balls or a bigger bearing will you be able to tolerate more wear before failure? Absolutely. So you would expect higher failure rates with the smaller 6204 bearing, but not because the bearing is so weak that it is failing due to low tensile strength. No, when we see IMS bearing failures we don't see shattered, broken bearing balls. What we see are worn races, worn balls, worn cages.

I don't need 12,000 installs and years of experience to tell me that proper lubrication is the best answer to wear. No, there are millions and millions of installs and decades and decades of experience that tell us that proper lubrication is the BEST way to minimize wear in a ball bearing. That's why I see the IMS Retrofit with a stronger bearing as just a band aid solution while the direct oil feed is a real fix, root cause solution.

Kirk Bristol
Science? What science? If you are willing to accept the statement that "Lubrication is a good thing" as science, you are much easier to convince than those of us that maintain these cars for other people. Until I see published, valid, and statistically meaningful long term performance by these oil feed systems, I will choose to withhold judgment on them; not that they are wrong, but that they are unproven.

As for your supposition that LN used to say lubrication was a problem and now has reversed that stance, that is not correct. LN has always stated that the breakdown of the OEM grease in the sealed bearing and its washing away when the seals begin to fail precipitate bearing failures. It is that lack of lubrication by the now displaced grease, and the break down of the oil that often gets trapped in its place that eats these bearings. But they have correctly expressed concern both about running unfiltered oil into ceramic bearings, and about the thickness of the oil feed flange significantly reducing the center bolt engagement and support. LN has stated for years that they were adamantly opposed to installing their bearings into engines that showed signs of significant metallic debris in the oil or filter because it can lead to premature bearing wear and failure, which is one of several reasons they developed the spin on oil filter system that uses filters without by-pass mechanisms. A recent article in the technical section of "Excellence" discussed the importance of oil filtration in these engines and why it is important to consider replacing the OEM system with a "full flow" (read no bypass) style filter, even if it is the only modification you make to the car.

Unfortunately, your perspective does not align with mine, as having more than 10,000 ceramic bearings happily running around for several years without unfiltered oil being squirted into them tells me an entirely different story.....................
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