Woody's build thread

[jcslocum]

Woody, the issue was most definitely the goo you put between the spacer and the hub. Lug bolts do not really stretch much when tightened and depend quite a bit on the friction between the head and the wheel for staying tight. Once the good dried and then began getting squished more by the loading of the wheel the space it was taking up and the bolts were loose. You're lucky there was nothing more that happened!!

I did design work for Cat on the D11 dozer tracks when it was a new machine. The plates (grouser plates) for the tracks are bolted on. We did lots of testing to determine the proper torque value for the special bolts used to hold the grousers on. We determined that 4500 Ft Lbs was the right amount and did lots of testing to make sure they would stay in place and could be taken off easily when service was required. Well, they were supposed to mount the grousers on the assembly line and then paint the assembly. Well they changed that to paint the undercarriage and the grouosers before mounting them. Well, the first D11 to get to the field with these tracks fell apart in about an hour. That got the scramin call that out design and tools were NFG and we must fix this immediately. Well this was not so esy to do as the PAINT was the thing creating the problem. Once the paint wore away, the bolts were loose and fell out.

[Nine8Six]

This stinks if you ask me Woody

Let's have a look at the lugs, found them?

The OD or ID threads out of 4 should be stripped (either lug or hub side). You see, the chance that this happen (all 5 coming "loose") is 1 in a trillion. If you can't find damage on any of the threads themselves, my advice to you Woody is call your nearest trusted police rep :/

That's 7~8 threads (times 5 = 38threads). Given the amount of rust and debris in there + weights I'd say chances are more than a trillion lollll Its a LOW speed wheel (1,200 RPM max?)

Never seen that or heard anything like it.

Forgot to renew you unofficial corporate protection tax, perhaps?! Are you cheating your wife man???

(ps thanks god u r okay bud)

[silver-S]

I assume you were required to follow all the PCR safety inspections and test your lug nut torque at the autocross, right? If not, your region's AX people are being negligent in the safety department. And so were you. This is nothing personal against them -- I get the impression that laxity in AX safety inspections is pretty common. And then the people running get complacent and ... uh oh.

I keep a Harbor Freight torque wrench and deep socket in my AX box and use it religiously. Cost of the tools was under $20 (on sale) and even if the numbers are 5% inaccurate, it's still a worthwhile investment, IMO. And your experience makes me think I should be checking my lug nuts AFTER running autocross, as well.

But if you DID check the torque at the AX and they still came off, clearly some of those parts you were using should have been sent to the recyclers.

[itsnotanova]

Thanks for your concerns. My wife was making fun of me for days after it happen because I was walking around with my head down about it. Now I look at the situation as a blessing. Things could have gone so much worse than they did but all that really happen was I was out of about $300. I'm bringing it up now because I've been changing wheels and never explained on this thread why I changed from the black wheels. Silver-S, The wheel falling off happen before the auto-cross event. Not like the inspection for the practice event was very thorough though. They basically looked at my car for one second and stamped it good. By that time I had already been ultra paranoid about the lug bolts even if they had checked them. Now I'm checking them like every 100 miles. I've been driving around with a fire extinguisher and torque wrench on the passenger side. Fred, I'm guessing three of the lug bolts had already come out and there were only two holding the wheel on when I went for a spin that day. I think I found the last bolt to come off and it had stripped maybe 8mm from the hub as it came out. I didn't go looking for the other bolts

I weighed the rear wheels of all my wheels with tires.
The factory 987 17 inch wheel/tire 45#
The black knock off 18 inch wheel/tire 55#
The arena red knock off 19 inch wheel/tire 60#

[Nine8Six]

This have happened to one guy we know here in SH (can’t find his vid now for some reason). He had genuine $1500/each BBS wheels on his bimmer. Residential CCTV concluded that the thief couldn’t complete his job and left the passenger side lugs just sitting on one thread (F & R wheels). Friend ended up losing one front. Just like you; mid speed, no warning, one second of wobbly’ing and ding-ding-ding off it went. Damage was incredible apparently because his locked and exploded in the footwell, passenger door couldn’t even open if I remember in his vid.

That’s what happen when you have 20” or 21” wheels I’m guessing

Side note Woody. No panic. Rotation of the wheel is the same as the thread lock pattern. Hence making it near impossible for lugs to unscrew, in fact it does quite the opposite. According to legends, the concept of “torquing” lug bolts is primarily to ensure that you do not ‘over-torque’ them, not the other way around – although also quite important lolll. Regardless, 99 cases on 100 of lug/hub documented failures were caused by over-torquing; cracking, stripping, etc, the internet has it all.

But here, I think you win something Woody. NEVER I’ve heard/read of even 4 (four) lugs unscrewing themselves in seconds. Are you dead sure all five were on the wheel before?? If there were only 2 then yes it could make sense that the wheel failed – but the only reason for that is only because you failed to install hub centric spacers, nothing to do with your meaningless 0.5mm thin silicon imo. Hub Centric Spacers => 10mm being a must man

For info Genuine Porsche wheel/hub design works with two lugs only. The 3 others lugs are for aesthetic loll

Ps . 8mm striping is 4 threads on a M14. X2 should have given you plenty, you really got unlucky there Woody :/ Don’t bother wasting money on lottery tickets, trust me on that one man!
Pps . I love wheels

[Smallblock454]

Originally Posted by itsnotanova

My theory is that the gasket maker I used to secure the crappy spacer gave enough space and cushion to allow vibration that worked the lug bolts loose. I also believe the aftermarket lug bolts that came with the spacers were not long enough.

Hello Woody,

first i think you had a lot of luck. No big damage to your car, to you or to other people.

I think you're absolutely right. From the pictures it looks like there is some kind of black stuff on the spacer - maybe this is the gasket maker?

It is extremely important that there is no paint, primer or anything else between disc, spacer and wheel. Only bare metal is allowed. Even rust should be removed and the fine lines on the wheel where the wheel fits to the brake disc should always be kept clean.

Overtorqued wheel lugs can also be a problem. There where a lot of very big crashes caused by overtorqued wheel lugs of non pro drivers on the Nürburgring in the last years.

Corvette looses rear wheel (lugs overtorqued): https://youtu.be/G-6S8lVBYno

My recommendation is to buy safety relevant parts always new. Wheel lugs, brake pads, break lines are for example parts i would always buy new. Even tyres – you never know what have happened to them before - even if they look good. A friend of mine went to a race track in june (Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps in Belgium). He had bought used track tyres that were mounted on the car, because he had no opportunity to transport a second tyre set. At 270 Km/h (approx 170 mph) the right rear tyre exploded. He is a good driver with a lot of race experience and there was no traffic on the Autobahn, so he could manage to get the car under control and stop it without any damage. He had really a lot of luck this day.

So safety always first.

Regards, Markus

[Top_Ramen]

Just as an extra precaution, when using wheel spacers, always torque lug nuts/bolts while the wheels are off of the ground. Especially when using wheels spacers without the built in hub centric rings.

[78F350]

Originally Posted by itsnotanova

...

I weighed the rear wheels of all my wheels with tires.
The factory 987 17 inch wheel/tire 45#
The black knock off 18 inch wheel/tire 55#
The arena red knock off 19 inch wheel/tire 60#

Woody, thanks for sharing it all. Glad you came out of it with just a story to tell and a few hundred less in your pocket. I was considering buying cheap spacers and lugs for my Carrera wheels, but you talked me out of it.
Our '01 came with 20s. The rears are 20x11 ET52 with 275/30ZR20 and weigh in at about 65 lbs. Not a choice I'd make on purpose, but it was an online auction purchase and I liked the look. I have 18s ready to go on, but just don't have the heart to do it.

[BruceH]

Originally Posted by itsnotanova

I weighed the rear wheels of all my wheels with tires.
The factory 987 17 inch wheel/tire 45#
The black knock off 18 inch wheel/tire 55#
The arena red knock off 19 inch wheel/tire 60#

That is a huge difference! No wonder you felt the difference, time to find something lighter I do still like the looks, but looks aren't everything

[itsnotanova]

I wouldn't be too afraid of wheel spacer. I've had good luck with them in the past and didn't have anything go wrong. I had a set of wheel spacers on a Chevy Malibu that I had turned into a pro-touring beast. 355hp, 405 ftlbs, under 3000lbs and tubular suspension. I had 3 inch spacers on the back of that car and I use to beat the tar out of it. I completely F'd up on the boxster and shouldn't have done the things I did. I got those spacers/lug bolts off a Boxster that I had dismantled. Whoever put them on that boxster used liquid nail or something similar. I used a putty knife and tapped it with a hammer to get them off. Yes using no spacer is better than using one but I wouldn't hesitate to use spacers if you need to. Just don't be a dumbass like me. Nothing wrong with spacers. Heck even Ford uses 4-6 inch spacers to turn their front Dana 60 single axle into a dual rear wheel axle to use on one ton trucks.

[78F350]

... I was considering buying cheap spacers and lugs for my Carrera wheels, but you talked me out of it. ...

Originally Posted by itsnotanova

I wouldn't be too afraid of wheel spacer. I've had good luck with them in the past and didn't have anything go wrong. ...

Right, I didn't mean not to use spacers. I meant that I had been thinking of using the cheapest ones I could find on eBay that fit. Now I realize that material and design of the spacer and lugs really does matter.

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by 78F350

Now I realize that material and design of the spacer and lugs really does matter.

^ Correct. My 2cents RE spacers:

I actually make those “custom” for teams and other track cars here (not only Porsche) and have a little business going on in JP also. We get orders in the 13mm spacers as much as we get them in the 18mm and do custom adapters also. For info the Porsche wheel hub assembly tolerance is /-0.05mm (concentricity and parallelism, from factory of course). I know… hard to believe. Go ask them they’ll confirm that with pride (it’s a Porsche you have Sir!).

So when your friend Markus tells you, no paint, no dirt, get rid of the rust, etc… he is NOT joking. If they are not installed ‘permanently’ flat then both the wheel and your safety will soon be compromised. Although I don’t see Woody’s silicon being the main culprit in his little adventure. I mean look at the spacer; no hub support (floating?!), open PCD, and possibly the wrong alloy, silicon or not my guess is they would eventually have brought in trouble (Asia rocks for other things, not Porsche spacers!).

So when you’ll be out to score wheel spacers, buy them from those who knows what they are doing lolll H&R in Germany for instance, they are two others that I know who also machine theirs within TOL and uses the correct 7075 alloy mix. No comments for the rest of the manufacturers… we’ve actually seen quite a few actually. Illegal s h i t e I tell ya lollll

RE materials; we have to import ours from Austria here as the local 7075’hardness is literally near the same as the 6061 grades anodized/heat treated or not. No Go for “performance” spacers. The local stuff simply deforms & compresses. Use local grades alloy and you’ll have to re-torque your wheels every bloody weeks simple as that.

So… you see. Nothing is simple :/ You’d think a spacer is just a silly dumb plate and bahh it’ll work man. Possibly just fine for cruising down the neighborhood, going to buy some milk at the store etc (I actually agree) but the reality is its not always like that, one day you’ll need to maneuver that Porsche car and its at that moment that you and your passenger will appreciate your properly engineered and machined spacers.

Keep away from Asian spacers (please, folks)

wheel spacers

[Nine8Six]

Nearly forgot, anything thicker than 10mm needs to be hub centric (to tolerance also loll). I.e. the orange highlight in the following grab

No No floating thick style spacers folks



ps: I'd really like to market those but it is near impossible to compete with those in the industry already. When you account from sml qty material imports and custom precision machining, they end up costing an harm and leg Maybe one day if we have to make 100+ pairs then prices may get a tad better, until then, we cave here lolll (custom orders only)

[scoper]

I lost a wheel in similar fashion back in the day. Used the wrong lug nuts on a '77 Celica, retrieved the wheel and took 1 lug off each of the other wheels to limp home!

[MinnMonk]

Did you buy the car through IAAI?

Can you buy more cars through IAAI?

Great thread!

[itsnotanova]

Yes I got both the 986 S and the 996 from IAAI. I get most of my vehicles from IAAI or Copart. The best deals are the ones you'll find on Craigslist though. Thanks

[garybull]

Interesting thread! I'm really thinking about buying one of these cars but I'm not too sure where to go with it though, what are the common issues with the car (if any) or is there a part that needs regular maintinace? went Servicing Stop with my car the other day and spoke to them and they gave me abit more of an insight on these cars (they know me, been using them for years) but need abit more help.

[itsnotanova]

Originally Posted by garybull

Interesting thread! I'm really thinking about buying one of these cars but I'm not too sure where to go with it though, what are the common issues with the car (if any) or is there a part that needs regular maintinace? went Servicing Stop with my car the other day and spoke to them and they gave me abit more of an insight on these cars (they know me, been using them for years) but need abit more help.

I appreciate the compliment but that's a very big question to ask. In general these are great cars and are mostly easy to work on from underneath. You'll need to do a lot of reading on here to decide what year and what options interest you. Everybody has an opinion on them but one thing we all agree on is that these are not cheap cars to own and maintain. I sell Porsche parts for a living and even I can barely afford to own one. Do some research and decide what you want before you start looking at buying one. Buy smart and don't buy the cheapest Porsche you find!

[10/10ths]

I had the distinct pleasure of meeting Woody and driving with him in the Texas Hill Country and enjoying the sights and sounds of his Boxster build. His car sounds wonderful, the exhaust he put together gives off an exotic wail over 4K that will make any car enthusiast swoon.

The car looks great.

But much more important than the car, is Woody the Man. What a great guy. He was kind enough to give me a tour of his wonderful facility and I got to see the Boxster Bone Yard.

Folks, if you need parts, Woody is the sort of person we should all strive to to business with. He's one of us. And he's good people.

[compinsating]

just read this entire thread... cool stuff. love the color of that car.

I've only ever been in my 2.5 boxster.... how much quicker is the 3.4? night and day? I've driven a lambo and own a vette as well and both those will set you back nicely into the seat.. my 2.5 box... not so much lol but its fun as can be to drive. I'm hoping my 3.8 swap makes me smile like the vette does when its done.

Brian