My Mind is Numb over IMS
 

I am the 3rd owner of a 2000 Boxster, 2.7, 98k on car, 1st owner had engine replaced at 40k by Porsche due to "internal engine failure". "Reconditioned" engine installed. (engine # M962265Y15482) Do the math; 58k on the engine. The dealer cannot give me much more info than I have on the invoice due to it being in September 2003. From these dates and engine number can anyone tell me what kind of IMS I have. (Single, double, upgraded or what). As far as I can tell it has the orig clutch, PP, FW and throw out bearing. It is currently in my indy shop for noise related to TO bearing. I am having the C, PP, TO Bearing replaced today. I change my oil every 5k and do a complete inspection of my filter. I have not found a single speck in three changes. Last change I installed a magnetic drain plug. No chips only very fine metallic paste. My indy is NOT recommending changing the IMS since it is not showing any problems. I called Porsche, they said the same thing. I have read everything I can find and my my mind is numb. I am 64 years old, drive very aggressively, try to keep the revs above 3K and love my car. Any advice?

'since you're in there' .... why not? Cheap insurance I say and Porsche nor your mechanic will pay for a new engine if they're wrong!!! By the way , I'm pretty sure the engine you have is a single-row- the worst! (like mine WAS). LONG LIVE CERAMIC!!!YIPEEEE!:cheers:

Thanks Woodsman. That's what I thinking. Did you have a failure?

I chose to have mine replaced because I did it want to even have the possibility that I would need to face my wife to tell her I needed a new engine on a car that is in almost perfect condition. I too replaced my oil every 5,000 miles and drove it like a Porsche should be driven, but unfortunately I still did not like the probability of that issue when I can proactively take steps to lessen a catastrophic outcome. I would personally say that if you are replacing all of those parts, dealing with the clutch, it does not hurt to replace the bearing, if it can be removed. It will give you peace of mind.

Man, that's the truth. this thing keeps me up at night. Every slight variation in the noises I hear causes my heart to stop beating. Thanks for chiming in.

I did not have 'a failure':eek: Pastor T. After owning/driving my car for three months, I decided I love it so much that I pro actively took 'her in'. My clutch was fine, as far as driving was concerned but I'm the worrying type, you know... Unfortunately the Porsche-trained mechanic screwed up royally and bent the valves! ( 'it shouldn't have moved...') and now after only 8000 mi. I've had to redo the clutch as 2 bolts on the pp (and the one for the crank sensor) backed out.
Has the indy done an IMS bearing replacement before??? Is he forgetful, or in too big of a hurry???

You need to just settle down and quit worrying so much. This issue has been beaten to death. By all accounts the failure rate for single row IMS is 5% to 10%. Yes you are rolling the dice. You can do one of four things:

1. Just monitor the oil and change oil frequently (I do mine every 3K miles)
2. Same as above, but change out bearing when you finally install a new clutch.
3. Install the IMS Guardian.
3. Go into immediate panic mode and replace the bearing NOW!!!!!!!!!!!

Because the clutch and flywheel are off, the incremental cost of replacing the bearing is about $650 plus about 1 to 2 hours labor. If the indie hasn't replaced one before, it will need to purchase the IMS installation tool kit for about $250. Replacing the IMS bearing is straight forward. The installer simply must follow the instruction exactly.

So the question comes down to this. Do you wish to spend up to $1000 to reduce your IMS bearing failure risk to below 1% or leave the risk somewhere between 5% and 10%? My calculus adds a another risk factor the the decision. If the IMS bearing did fail and one must replace the engine, how does one know the quality and history of the replacement engine. And does the replacement engine have an upgraded IMS bearing? There are ethical and non-ethical vendors out there. The trick is to find one that is trustworthy.

At 58K miles, you seem to be past the early failure zone. From here on out, any of 22 known failures can happen within your engine. This is why Porsche and your indy shop say to skip the IMSB upgrade. I'd drive it until it blows up and use the time to plan and save for the rebuild when it does.

112,000 miles 996 (still running strong)
126,000 miles silver Boxster (engine still running strong)
204,000 miles black Boxster (engine finally failed, cause unknown and don't care)

A 10% failure rate comes out to maybe 1% per car/year. Now are there other things as liable to happen that you are willing to spend that much money on? Or is this one you'd rather take advantage of well over half the labor already being paid for in the clutch install and do? Only you understand your risk accepting ability, your finances, your situation.

At your age, I knew my risk acceptance was very high and my financial ability to recover from a total engine failure was too so that I made the "no action" decision. Either way it came out I wasn't going to agonize over it and I took the Boxster everywhere and in all weather over other cars I could have taken including a Honda with 4WD. I figured I was more likely to hit a deer than have an IMS go.

But I wasn't having my clutch replaced and wasn't equipped with the same degree of knowledge of the various options and their success rates that we have today. Is my decision right for you? I can't really say.

I bought my 04 S (58k mi) knowing I would do the IMSB and clutch/ RMS right away. Sounds like it is weighing on your mind, so seems it would be wise to upgrade while you are in for the clutch. At least will give you some peace of mind about a known weakness in the M96 motor.

You guys are AWESOME! All of you. Thanks for taking the time to give me your thoughts. I'm going in to my indy next week for the whole shot (Clutch, PP, FW, TO Bearing and IMS) Thanks for helping me think this through. I have never, in my life had anything I have enjoyed as much as my Boxster. Long drives in the mountains of northern California. Check my Facebook page (pastorverl) for loads of pictures. Lord willing, I intend to do so for a very long time. :)

Pastor - FYI, only your "Friends" on Facebook can see your photos. How about posting a few up here on the Forum for us to see?

And good to hear that you'll be able to sleep at night!

No way the IMS replacement should add 2 hours to your whole job....

thank you Pastor T, I'm more relaxed knowing your gonna' get that sucker outa' there! CERAMIC, CERAMIC, CERAMIC!!!:D

Hey Woodsman; so I went to Sacramento this morning to discuss the whole deal with another indy. My local guy had not done an ims change so he recommended a very reputable guy in Sac. His shop was full of Porches and there was an m96 on the bench with the ims blown. So I got to see 1st had the entire deal from the inside out. This guy is very knowledgeable and has done many of these. He took over the shop from his dad who has been at it since the early 50's. His recommendation right away was the flat 6 fix. I knew of the flat 6 fix but was unaware of the difference between the IMS retro-fit and the IMS solution. After checking the flat six website I find the solution can only be done by their shop on the east coast. So I guess I'm getting the ceramic retro-fit model right? I made an apt to get the c,pp,tob,fw,ims changed in 2 weeks. Is that what you meant by ceramic, ceramic, ceramic?

Pastor T,

In the absence of upgrading the bearing, there's only way to rebuke the IMS demon, and that's with the power of the Johnny Danger Keychain. However, availability is extremely rare, and one can easily be overtaken by it's power.

The IMS Solution is available now for purchase by auto repair shops only. So your Sacramento independent can contact SSF auto parts in South San Fransisco to get the IMS Solution kit. Individuals cannot buy the kits.

There is one big limitation for the IMS Solution. Repair shops can install the IMS Solution only in single row bearing cars. Given the year your car was produced, it likely has a dual row bearing engine. So the IMS Retrofit is the likely path for you.

Jake Raby hinted in another thread last weekend that there may be another IMS option available soon. You might email Flat Six Innovations and see if the option would impact your choices.

Great. Now we have but another IMS option. Before I spend nigh on to 2k on the ceramic retro-fit, I'd like to know what this latest fix is all about ? What's this one going to be called, the IMS "Almighty" or "Grand Crescendo" ? With all due respect, I wish that we could find some definitive solution.

It's not just Porsche that hides and denies common design problems. My Jeep Wrangler just surprised me with the dreaded "death wobble". It is a known problem with Jeep and dodge trucks but they deny it and won't compensate those who experience it. Vehicles with coil springs and straight axles are susceptible to it. It is actually very dangerous and scary when it happens. Usually it is a result of track bar bushings going bad, but it is tough to diagnose sometimes. Look around on the Internet and you find out just how common it is. Just spent $300 getting a new track bar, steering damper, wheel balance, and alignment. Throw Jeep in the same pile as some of these other car manufacturers. It's all about the $, and it will never change regardless of how many class action cases are filed. It is a crapshoot every time you get in a vehicle with known catastrophic problems that may occur at any time. I drive my Boxster and don't worry anymore. Yes it could self destruct but I will cross that bridge when I get there.

Awesome key chain Johnny. Gota Love it.

My 1999 Wrangler had the "death wobble" so I replaced the steering damper, it improved then I removed the front wheel drive shaft and the problem is gone. It was a worm u-joint in the front drive shaft. Easy to fix for under $80.

I'm surprised that your indy recommended against changing the bearing. First of all having a sealed bearing inside of the engine is a flawed idea from the start. With this approach, the bearing becomes dependent on proper maintenance and driving habits.

If the previous owner was not good about getting the oil changed regularly (at least twice a year imho, or every 4K miles) and did not use a quality oil if these intervals were exceeded (some Porsche experts disagree that Mobil 1 was suitable for long intevals), and the driver did not keep the revs up regularly during drives (at least 3K RPM once the oil is up to temp after about 7-10 mins driving, or twice the coolant time) and did a lot of short shifting at low revs to save gas or to "go easy" on the engine, then the bearing was not operating under optimal coniditions. If that situation goes on for a long time the bearing will need to be changed sooner than later.

And simple logic will tell you that a sealed bearing will not last indefinitely, even if properly maintained. If your taking down the transmission, something you may only do once or twice during the the life of the engine, you should replace the IMS even if you don't opt to replace with upgraded ceramic bearings. Keeping the OEM metallic bearings in for too long opens up the possibility of contamination from bearing degradation. If the maintenance practices of the previous owner were at all a question mark to you as the new owner then there's no logical reason to keep the original bearing in place. Looking back now many believe that the factory/service depts were recommending intervals that were far too long and oils that did not offer enough protection for these intervals, neither did they advise their customers to keep the car from sitting for too long, refrain from using the car only on short trips or driving the car too gingerly as far the rev counter is concerned.

My 2002 S had two IMS failures in under 50K...One of my work buddies had a 2.7 that had an IMS failure at 30k. My neighbor had a 2000 with an IMS failure (don't recall the mileage).

When I got my 2001 S, I didn't even think twice about it - I just got it done. Spending 3k was a lot cheaper than spending 16k.

Many people here feel that the ims failure is overhyped. When I went to Jake Raby's shop in Georgia a few years ago, I was stunned at the dead engines with IMS failures he had collecting dust.

I would personally never own a 986 without the IMS upgrade.

YES PASTOR T, I was talking about the CERAMIC bearing retro fit. I wish I knew of a shop like your's near me! I'm also impressed with the indy that steered you to another, Porsche experienced , shop. Integrity is worth more everyday.

trust, measure and then verify

I think the failure rate on these engines is HIGHER than is being reported. I too suffered a failure at 68,000 miles on the clock. As of now the cause is not entirely known. Must rip off cam covers, IMS - AND MY WALLET!

Cheap insurance would be to PULL THE OIL PAN when doing a oil change. Why? Because my oil filter only had 1-2 little small bits in it….on the other hand my pan looked like this….
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1371916959.jpg

No bits were in the oil uptake screen. No confirmation it is even an IMS yet. I picked up this much "powder-type debris" from the oil pan - even when the oil filter was almost clean!

Here is a shot of the practically clean oil filter in the background and all the fine debris on a paper towel in the foreground….
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1371917305.jpg

Even tough I have changed the oil 'religiously'! As they say, "When it is your time to go…"

She has been parked for an another agonizing month AGAIN! There is NO TELLING WHEN THE IMS demon will strike!

NO WARNING in my case either…..so IF you can learn from others - better pull the oil pan!

I am growing weary of Pcar reliability issues….don't you think for a moment that the IMS is the only failure point in these engines.

Those of you who HAVE working engines, good for you! Live well BEFORE YOUR TIME IS UP!

Anyone got a line on another engine besides Porsche to put in there in the $6k range?

Sorry to read of your engine's demise, Homeboy. :( Hope you can find a suitable solution, rather than ending up with an expensive roller.

The IMS issue is a hot topic indeed; this should cement the notion that the only foolproof way to address it is to install the upgraded bearing.

Costly, yes, but one sleeps better at night knowing that the issue has been resolved. People can write all they want about failure rates, oil types, low temp thermostats, guardians etc., but the fact of the matter is..................it can happen to anyone of us at ANY TIME.

What kills me is that people will argue endlessly against replacement because of cost, but have no qualms about their "mods": plunking down thousands for Carrera wheels, RUF bumpers, and GT3 seats.

Not that there's anything wrong with that................;)

As always, that's me, and I'm just sayin'..............:)

TO

On the reliability versus time bell curve, someone is going to be on the upslope. Others on the far downslope. It is thus for all wearing parts. And all engines, no matter who make em.

He's right. Cant drive in fear every day. This car is made for fun!!

My 05 box is my daily driver and I'm almost at 150,000 miles. Mostly highway, spirited driving every other day, 10,000 mile oil changes with Redline oil, and always warm up before I pass 4k RPMs. The mechanic when I first bought the car told me to drive it like it should be driven so I do.

So far so good. I plan to address the IMS when my clutch needs replacement. If you're dropping the tranny for anything, just replace the bearing while your there and put yourself at ease.

When you buy the Boxster there's a financial aspect you accept, which is that something expensive might come along so try and set money aside for it. But its all about percentages. Some run into problems and some don't.

Looks like I should check my oil pan next oil change O.O.

I am so sorry to hear this, homeboy. I thought you had replaced your IMS bearing with a Casper engineering ceramic fairly recently? Regardless, please keep us posted on the cause, if and when it is determined. I too hope that you can find a decent engine at a decent price. I have my finger's crossed, amigo!

Brad

Homeboy, in reading some of your past logs, I see you have already installed the IMS upgrade, so I doubt you had an IMS failure.

Don't know what could have possibly happened to your engine, but I feel your pain. :(

TO

My thinking was. Since I was clutch deep I will go ahead and go ceramic.Whats the worst thing that could happen if I replace versus if I don't replace. The removed bearing appeared to be fine, the new bearing is better. I paid the man, smiled and drove off in a spirited manner. You won't regret dealing with it now.

So how much was the problem a Porsche problem and how much was the folks who worked on it? What was their experience level and did they do the install right the first time? (We know thousands of LN installs have been done successfully but we also know of some really botched attempts)

Was the original engine free of debris when the original bearing replacement was done?

Does LN ship their bearing packed with any sort of grease to reduce initial rotation wear until it gets enough oil? Would that explain why the two bearings rotate differently?

What ever happened to the LN bearing? Did you ship it back to them? Or did you sell it to someone?

Sorry Mike, but which post in this thread are you responding to? Its not uncommon for me to miss something, but I was wondering if this was in the wrong thread....

Regardless, yes there have been problems with LN (and I assume other replacement) IMS bearings caused by an improper installation - although it is my understanding that they typically show up very quickly, generally within a few hundred miles. If they are not seated perfectly flush, the IMS shaft can either bind, or run untrue; not surprisingly, the results of either will be disastrous!

Brad

This.... How much of this debris was in the engine before the bearing replacement? When we do a bearing upgrade for a customer we always pull sump plate and filter prior to any disassembly regardless if it is just "while you are in there". If ANYTHING alarming is present we simply inform the customer the money would be better spent opening the engine for a rebuild.

And Mike, he used Casper Labs bearing, although I doubt it was the new bearing's fault for that debris.

Skoot

I agree with Mike. Sorry Homeboy, but you've had lots of "odd" issues, and I'm not convinced it's Porsche's fault. It seems you don't even know if it's the IMS bearing yet.