fuel enconomy

[berj]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

@ Berj,

I agree that Gluttony for Gluttony's sake is a bad thing, but no one spoke of this at all, this is a new twist you threw into the mix.

Not at all:

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

For me? I don't care! It's equally delusional to think that the Gas you don't burn won't pollute. Instead, it will be burned by someone else. Most likely some Chinese guy who's forsaken his Bicycle for a Beijing "Heroic", their newest SUV! Personally, I'd rather get the enjoyment from it.

That's gluttony.. ie. I'd better eat it before someone else does.

Originally Posted by bmussatti

Look at what people are willing to spend at Starbucks everyday, or bottled water. Don't worry about gas mileage and fuel costs. IMHO."

Same here. ie. everyone else is eating.. I may as well join in.

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

First, everybody will not do it, meaning that it won't happen and the effort ineffective. You can say it all starts with one, but it has to end up with many more to be effective. And 30+ years of espousing environmental concerns have only seen consumption increase worldwide, so my expectations are not high.

I'm sad to see that attitude. It may seem like a platitude but each little piece does help. And 30 years is hardly enough time to wait.. it took us quite some time to get into this situation and it will take time to get out. Seems a little fatalistic to me to just assume that things won't change and thus do nothing. Things like recycling *do* help (eg in the area of landfill use and energy spent on resource extraction). Just look at the area of paper recycling -- something like 40% of newspapers in the US is made of recycled material (and many newspapers took up this initiative voluntarily) do you honestly think we'd be better off *without* that 40%?

I'd personally prefer that my kids (heck even myself) not have to live in a world covered in garbage and I'm damn sure that Michigan is getting tired of taking Toronto's (ie my) garbage even if they are getting paid for the service. So I do my part.. I reduce what I consume and discard (in some areas substantially, in others less so). And by my example many friends have done the same. Any by their example others have done so. It's a simple feedback loop.

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

And, you've made no account of the negative effects of such a 20% reduction. Think of all the people who are dependent upon the Oil Industry through the Discovery process, to Recovery, Sales, Distribution and even those people employed in the Environmental Industry who's sustenance comes from Oil. If you reduce consumption, you'll reduce the need for many of these people's jobs. In the short term, this can be more devastating than the gains achieved. Of course, if you are not affected by these, they have no meaning to you, except to say that sooner or later, you or your industry will feel the effects.

I've heard this before and I just don't buy it.. it's a cheap shot and it holds no water. Every bit of technological advancement we've made as been built upon the obsolessence of others and their work. To not do something simply because someone's job will be affected gets us absolutely nowhere. If there's anything our culture has shown is a remarkable ability of people (both individuals and populations) to adapt in such circumstances. And besides, what about all of the people working in the recycling industry? What about all of those researchers working on alternative energy sources? Want to put them out of work?

Then there's the issue of personal financial savings. I've got an expensive car that uses expensive gas. You can bet your ass that I'll be right on the line of enjoyment vs. consumption. It's simply a case of diminshing returns -- 20km/h more speed, faster starts or taking it a bit easy and being able to pocket a little more cash for other things. Like I said before.. it's all about balance for me. Absolutes are no good for anything (yes.. I see the irony in that statement.. but I stand by it)

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Your analogy about the Old Lady's purse is not at all germane to the issue, except again, only in the most abstract of reason.

I disagree. Your argument was that you figured that since someone else was going to use it anyway you'd prefer to use it yourself rather than scaling back your use. Seems the same to me.

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

So far as your item #4, I made no such statements, therse are assumptions on your part and therefore I have no need to address them.

Quite right. I apologize. I was simply reacting against the notion that just because I have the car that I have that I don't (and can't) care for the environment and the idea that I don't know the environmental costs of how I live.

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Your last argument about future generations does have some validity, but only to the point. Again, effectiveness of a solution has to be factored in. All the legislation and subsequent technical innovation of the '70's to reduce pollution has been more than offset by the increase in numbers of both people and cars.

Exactly my point. Imagine if we didn't have those innovations and attitude changes against which our increased consumption could be offset. That's my whole point. Balance. If we want to consume more (and nowhere have I said that we shouldn't be able to consume) then we must pay the piper in some other area. Simple.

[MNBoxster]

@Berj,

This exchange is pointless. I will never persuade you because you simply will not accept the fundamental concept of my argument, namely, that an ineffective solution is no solution, only wasted effort. In 30 years, we have not reduced the levels of pollution, it has gone up! Admittedly, some CO were reduced, but the overall effect is an increase in the pollution, not a decrease.

The argument that it would have been worse without some measures is like a Politician arguing that money not spent is money saved. It's not saved at all, it is just not spent, there is a fundamental difference.

You must act as your conscience guides you.

Happy Motoring!...Jim'99

[berj]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

@Berj,

This exchange is pointless. I will never persuade you because you simply will not accept the fundamental concept of my argument, namely, that an ineffective solution is no solution, only wasted effort. In 30 years, we have not reduced the levels of pollution, it has gone up! Admittedly, some CO were reduced, but the overall effect is an increase in the pollution, not a decrease.

The argument that it would have been worse without some measures is like a Politician arguing that money not spent is money saved. It's not saved at all, it is just not spent, there is a fundamental difference.

You must act as your conscience guides you.

Happy Motoring!...Jim'99

You're probably right.. but.. one last thing from my end and that will be that (with no hard feelings.. promise )

You're missing something when you say that even with 30 years of efforts polution has gone up (though in some places this isn't true.. but be that as it may).. it's all about rates.. it may have gone up but it certainly didn't go up as fast as it might have otherwise. And that counts for something. Finite (and damaging) resources consumed more slowly -- that's a good thing (TM) and a good start in my books. Obviously you see it differently.

And you're right.. I won't accept that the various efforts (obviously some more effective than others) we make are wasted. The more we try the more likely we are to find one that really works.

Peace out! I'm going for a drive

[911sc]

thank's for all the info really appericiate ,i ask the porsche dealer in toronto ,service manager say ,some boxster owner only getting 300 to 350 km ,for mine 400to 420 is totally normal.-thank's

[sdkkv]

I guess I better go shut off my lawnmower...I was too lazy to shut it off and it's been running for the last hour or so while I came inside to check the computer!

Gosh...next I'll read that it's not good to do doughnuts in the Boxster in my cul-de-sac because the smoke is bad for the environment...

What is this world coming to...I'm going to go watch the NASCAR race!!!