Dyno Report : GIAC DME Stage 3 Program on Boxster S
 

Disappointing results again :mad:

Attached is the dyno graph. Folowing mods are on my car :
- Dansk Sports Cat
- Dansk Headers
- Dansk Sports Muffler
- Evo Highflow Intake

When I sent my DME to Evolution Motorsports, I told them I had the above 4 mods on my car. They told me the stage 3 program (Evo intake, headers & muffler) will be the closest fit and that they would load my DME with that program.

Evolution Motorsports took about a week to get the program in place as they claim my DME is different from those in USA so require some additional 'tweaking'. Not a terribly big problem as my car was in the paint shop anyway. Got my DME back last week and drove the car for about 10 days before heading down to the dyno today.

Blue line - Today's run with GIAC program with all the above 4 mods
Red line - Run with stock ECU and all the above 4 mods
Green line - Run with stock ECU, Dansk headers and sports cat

As you can see, the run with the best results (bar > 6,500rpm) is actually the green line. Meaning the muffler, intake and GIAC was a waste of money :mad:

There is a noticeable sudden dip in power/torque between 5,800-6,000rpm. This greatly concerns me. One of the reason suggested is a lean out which forced the knock sensor to retard timing. Damn it! I'm not tracking my car till this issue is resolved!

Objectively, the GIAC program did help in bringing back power to area lost when I put the intake and muffler on the car. But this recovery simply brought it closer or on par with the green line run. Meaning I would have been better off not putting on the muffler, intake and the GIAC program which cost me about $2,200!

My peak bhp is now even lower than before!! :mad:

Overall, I'm quite or very disappointed with the results. I shall be contacting Evolution Motorsports to get a refund since they have a satisfaction guarantee that comes with their GIAC program. But I will need to send my DME back to them again to restore everything back to stock and that means a week of no car again :( Either that or I have someone to fly down here and get the DME custom tuned for my car on the dyno... I'm seriously considering that option.

Any suggestions people?

Disappointing to say the least.

Keep us posted and good luck!

Did you dyno the unmodified motor with the stock ECU? If so, please publish that curve so we can make the comparison. Thanks.

I keep reading posts on this forum and others that talk about how expensive mods are
for the Boxster and how little they do... I also read lots of sad stories like this one stating a
LOSS of HP after thousands have been invested.

Just proves to me that my stock engine with its stock intake, exhaust and ECU is the best I'm
going to get without a potential loss of cash AND power.

I'll save my pennies for a used 2005 S which I will buy in 2009 or 2010.
Sounds like a long time from now, but the older I get, the faster the years fly by and more
patient I become! I'll wait and get more power out of my next Boxster, which will be kept stock as well.

Wow. That really sucks. That dip in the 6K range is definitely not good. I still think that the parts have the potential to make good power. Obviously the tuning is out of whack. But how much out of whack is the question.

At this point, everything is a guess. You need cold hard facts to decide on a gameplan. I really think you need to get a proper air/fuel reading with your dyno runs. There's too many variables and guessing what to fix with 2/3rds of the info will only cause more frustration and a lighter wallet.



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Nope. The basedyno I did was stock ECU with Dansk headers. You can do a search for that in this forum as I posted the dyno report as well...

I was going to do that but there's really no point. Even if I found that the car is running lean, there's nothing I can do about it. I don't have a program to alter the fuel/ignition map. And I can hardly just tell Evolution Motorsports that I'm running lean at certain rpm so please increase the fuel at that rpm.

Like I said, I'm probably going to revert to stock and get someone to do a custom map on the dyno... Only issue is $$.

Thx for sharing all this info. I'm not sure if I was reading this right but is your max hp 238 at the wheels? A bone stock S would have about 220hp at he wheels give or take because of the difference between tip/maunual parasitic driveline loss. That's pretty good if that is correct. It would still be nice to have a bone-stock baseline, but 220hp is probably pretty close. I calculated the driveline loss and it looks like you are making about 273hp at the crank which is pretty respectable. Like you said though, the GIAC programming didn't do squat. It looks like the Dansk headers and cats alone gave you the hp boost and perform as claimed. Keep us posted.

Yes, from the dyno, it's about 238bhp now. Used to be 239 before the GIAC program but that 1bhp is probably negligible :)

My 'baseline' dyno with Dansk headers is 223bhp if I remember correctly. Wished I had done 1 dyno under totally stock conditions though...

End of the road...
 

Spoke to the person at Evolution Motorsports today. There's a full satisfaction guarantee on the GIAC program. I will just need to send my DME back to them to revert it back to stock and a full credit less shipping will be given to me.

There is no custom tuning services they offer. I did enquire about the possibility of having someone from EVO travel down to where I'm and tune the DME on the dyno but apparently, that is not possible.

Kinda ironic since if GIAC has a program to alter the fuel/ignition map, they would surely have the ability to custom each map to a car. Just a matter of cost. Oh well, looks like the end of the road for me....

Any suggestions will be most welcomed. There're a couple of pretty competant tuners here which I'm sure can do the job. Problem is getting the program to access the fuel/ignition map...

Sigh.... another week of living without the car again....

GIAC is custom tunable from what I understand. Obviously Evo can't do it without your car so getting your money back is a good idea. Did they offer any kind of guess as to why you're getting the results that you're seeing?

I believe there's a member on ppbb that has the exact setup as yours. He went on to dyno everything too and had much better luck. I think his name is Andy. You might want to do a search over there and talk to him.

Lastly, you might want to ping Garret @ GIAC. He might be able to offer some suggestions on where to custom tune over there or give some insight as to why you're seeing what you're seeing.


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Nope, the person that I liaised with, Mike Myers, was not the least helpful. He said that there's nothing that can be done and there's only the various off-the-shelf program for various stages. No offer to explain. He even tried to pull a fast one by telling me he warned me before I wanted to get the GIAC program that there would be minimal gains considering what I've placed in the car already??!!! I 'refreshed' his memory by reminding him that he told me I could probably expect gains of between 5-10bhp since I'm not compensating for fueling with my mods.

Like I said in my previous post, I even offered to pay for someone to drop my Singapore to tune the car on the dyno but he said that was not possible. No offer of explaination of why there's no gain was offered either. Just told me to send the DME back and get a refund, less shipping.

Honestly, I'm pretty disappointed with Evo's level of service. I had to call 4 times and each time was told he's busy. Left messages 3 times for him to respond to my email. Email was sent before that with no response. Wasn't really expecting this kind of response but what the hell, at least I'm getting my money back.

How do I get in touch with Garrett? I did try writing to GIAC using their general enquiry email off the web but the response did not help. They basically said they did not have any program that cater for a sports cat in addition to the header/muffler/intake setup...

Well, it sounds like you've exhausted (no pun intended) all options as far as Evo and GIAC are concerned.

There's 2 places here in the Bay Area that deal with Porsches and tuning them. Akkurat and Dynospot. You might want to call them and see if you can get some kind of guess as to why you're seeing what you're seeing. It's worth at least the phone calls.

Again, try to ping the guy on ppbb that has your setup and see what his story is...as I remember everything went smoothly for him and he got significant gains.

But other than getting someone to dyno tune your car on the spot, I don't think there's any other options. Good luck and keep us posted.


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I gave up navigating the ppbb. The UI is just terrible. Not to mentioned because of the way it's setup, everything before the current month is archived :(

A guy over at Renntech has recommended Revo Technik which I explored previously. The good news this time round is they have an office in Singapore. I'm gonna call them tomorrow to find out more :) Hopefully custom tuning services will be offered.

I still gotta send my DME back to Evo to get my $795 back though :(

Maybe I am too much an optimist, but from what I can determine, you got a pretty respectable power gain just through headers and sports cat with stock ECU.

I had been wondering how well the stock ECU would handle a header change and you seem to have confirmed that it is up to the job.

What kind of power gain were you expecting from the remapped chip? Relatively speaking, it would have to be almost as much as the "header + cat" to justify the price and hassle?

Although the sports muffler didn't seem to to do anything for you power wise, did it at least give a decent sound? If so, perhaps the sports muffler should just be considered as an aesthetic upgrade?

Thanks for the sharing your travails...

That was what I was thinking. ClubHead has a tip equipped car and is pushing 238hp at the wheels with translates into approx 275hp at the crank.Wth basically just the headers and cats he made nearly 25 more hp. I think that is very good considering how unresponsive the flat 6 is to mods because it is already pretty tuned right out of the box. I will be starting a new job at Mid-America Motorworks in a couple weeks and I can get all parts at cost! I can't resist throwing on a set of dansk headers and cats now.

I'm looking at least slightly (3-6bhp) beyond what I had with just the headers & cats. I don't think that's unreasonable right? With a better calibration to fuel and ignition timing to cater for the better air flow, the car should make more power throughout the rpm range and just at the high end.

I'm still undecided whether I like the sound of my new exhaust. Its loud and draws attention but still not something I'm going crazy over :(

You lucky guy! What're you waiting for then? Oh yes, I guess the warranty issue for your relatively new car :)

Thankyou. Are you sure the headers and cats will void my warranty since they are just bolt-on mods? If I can retain my warranty and do the mods then I think it would be a no-brainer.

I'm often told that cat-back mods will normally not affect warranty ie. you can only change your muffler. Changing anything forward of the cat, including the cat itself, is normally frowned upon by the OPC and may void your warranty. Best is to check with them directly.

I check with my dealer and see what they say. Brucelee, what do you think?

My guess is this is a warranty buster but I will check it out later today with my dealer.

Mucho gracias Bruce

Dealer says as follows:

These mods would void emissions warranty (7/70) immediately.

They MIGHT void warranty on engine related problems, ie internal or electrical. Dealers are now reporting any mods they note on engines and chassis during service visits. If a problem develops, this could be used to deny warranty claims.

So, say you play with the suspension and develop a related issue, you could be denied coverage.

So says the local experts.

:cheers:

Know your rights.

There is something called the Magnusson-Moss Warranty. You can read it all here: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm

Here's a little blurb on it that I picked up off the net:
No aftermarket part or accessory that is properly installed on your vehicle will entirely void your original vehicle manufacturer's warranty. According to the provisions in the Magnuson-Moss Warranty - Federal Trade Commission Improvement Act, it is the dealership's responsibility to prove that your modification directly caused or affected the failure you are trying to resolve.

With that said, some dealerships are more performance-oriented than others and are more willing to work with customers. After all, if they won't comply then you have no choice but to take them to court. Not entirely convenient.

Warranty-related materials, published by the new vehicle manufacturers, usually state that the installation of aftermarket parts have no effect on the warranty unless such equipment causes the problem that leads to the warranty claim. Check your warranty to be sure this is the case.

Nonetheless, some dealers have improperly denied warranty claims even though the claim had nothing to do with aftermarket parts. I.E., just because you install an exhaust system, your suspension failure warranty claim cannot be denied. If you experience a problem with an uncooperative dealership, point out the provisions of the this "FEDERAL ACT".


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Thankyou for the input. I don't care about emissions violations because I don't live in CA or other environment friendly states. However, if my engine grenades down the road I want to be 100% certain they won't try to shaft me on warranty issues if these mods are installed. I'll check with my dealer and see what they say.

Why spit in the wind for what appears to be no noticable performance gain? Lets face it, we have yet to have strong evidence that Porsche has not gotten the breathing and chip issues handled.

Just my two cents but esp during warranty, I want my dealer on my side. Esp given the aftermarkets apprarent failure to improve perf with the Boxster.

Now, on the issue of Rear Main Seals..........

:cheers:

Well, I certainly agree most mods are smoke and mirrors particularly for the boxster, however, clubhead's S cranks out a good 20hp more than stock which is almost entirely contributed to the Dansk headers and cats. I've heard and read stock 00-02 S's put down about 220whp with is right in line with the 15% industry standard on driveline losses. He unfortunately doesn't have a base setting so we will never never no for sure his exact gains. I do know that I would be happy with a 20hp gain for around 1,500 dollars(I can get a sweet discount:).

Does that mean my dyno reports on my cats and headers are all for piss then??! If those are not evidence, I really don't know what else is. Yes, I'm lacking a baseline but the dyno run between the headers and cats shows gains across the entire rpm range.

It's pretty apparent that the stock headers are manufactured with cost savings in mind, lacking a common collector and not of equal length. The photos I've attached of the stock and Dansk design should convince most that the latter superior.

I'm just so sick of this stock-is-best mentality. There're some areas where it's just a waste of money (GIAC, intake) but there are other areas where improvements can be had. I've tested and showed both sides of it but for some reason, there are still people who thinks nothing beats stock from Porsche :confused: And Stuttgart just have everything engineered near perfect....

Wake up people and try to be objective will ya?

I agree with you on the the headers Clubhead. I've looked at mine up close and are definately not optimized for performance.

I think that Clubhead has really done us all a massive favor. His data shows what pretty much every respectable tuner is telling us is true. The exhaust systems of modern cars are a significant compromise of performance vs emissions and sound.

A US spec Porsche has to comply with a wide range of State emissions regulations. It is no surprise that the manufacturers choose to sell only one model that meets even the most stringent (CA) spec in order to optimize costs. Smaller manufacturers like Porsche often even compromise Euro spec cars to conform to the most stringent (lowest common denominator) requirements.

I remember visiting the Ducati factory in Bologna a few years back and commenting to the CFO on the multitude of different spec same model bikes awaiting shipment and he replied that in a few years time they will have converged all models to one spec, to the detriment mostly of the Europeans.

Porsche are engineered to a much higher level than the average rice burner or detroit stump puller. However, their intake and exhaust sytems have to be sub optimum from a performance perspective. Also, lets not forget that we are dealing with a $40- $50k Porsche...they had to shave costs somewhere!

The interesting thing about Clubhead's data is the fact that the intake and ECU mods yielded little gain which helps the rst of us focus on the exhaust side until someone can prove that the intake boost can be had for a reasonable cost. Thanks Clubhead!

You're welcome :) At least I'm getting constructive comments here.

I could've easily just posted my positive dyno results on my headers and sports cat and left out the bad results on the intake, muffler and ECU to save myself looking like an idiot who just wasted a bunch of dollars. Afterall, this place is for sharing our experiences. But there're just people that're itching to say "I told you so" once they read about the negative experiences. Just look at the response I got off the UK Boxster board and you'll know what I mean... I'm not posting dyno results (positive or negative) over there anymore.

After going through all this, did anyone notice the European tuners (Gemballa, RUF, etc) mostly leave the stock intake piping in place and just make do with an aftermarket filter element? I think they've gone down the route of the Evo type intake with less than positive results.

So I'm going to source for a BMC filter element and replace the Evo intake kit with the stock piping kit. A dyno and report will then follow :)

The local dyno shop just loves me....

I think that is a good idea on the BMC. I love mine and it only costs 70 bucks. I really do think the intake system is about as good as it is ever going to get with the BMC filter. Unlike the EVO system, the stock system sucks only sucks in fresh cold air from outside the engine bay.