High Horsepower Boxsters
 

Hello,

I am new here and am very seriously considering getting a 2000-2002 boxster s as my next car in the near future. The one thing that i am concerned about is the fact that i am coming from a mustang and do enjoy a fast car with power. I have done alot of research on the m96 engines and have some questions.

Why is it that some stock porsche engines can hand 700+ hp out of the same design while the boxster engine has a problem reaching 300? I understand that most people who buy boxsters arn't looking for speed machines, but how can the engines be so similar and yet so vastly different in the amount of power that they are able to handle.

I come from the mustang world where all you need is forged internals and a big supercharger or twin turbos and you can hit 1000hp easy. But a lot of porsches (not boxsters) i see are pushing some seriously high numbers too. I see that the Raby engines are coming out with a 500hp turbo spec version in 2010. I applaud all of the work that i have seen Jake Raby do. But it seems like he has done way to much work for an engine that can only handle 500 hp. I understand that his main focus is on reliability, but some people like speed to, and with all of that research and development, 500 seems a little low to me.

I know a lot of people have seen porsches running in places like the Texas mile or eddie bello's porsche going down the 1/4 and laying down some fantastic times and speeds, so why is it so hard for these m96 boxster engines to make power?

I love the porsche design and i really want to get into a porsche because i would like to have a car that handles well, but i need some power to go with it. I know that the turbo engines are the ones makeing all the power, and that they are based off the gt1 engine. But why are the so different from the carerra engines that the boxster 3.2 engines are based off of? It would seem that all of the big power some porsches are making, some one would find a way to fit the crank and rods and such into a carerra engine/boxster engine?

Thanks in advance,
Cody

Considering how many things these engines manage to break, and with terminal results, with their “measly” 300 HP, I think I’d be looking at what basic components you will need to upgrade before you spend a whole lot of time trying to make more HP with the M96……

And there are factory Porsches that are capable of making well North of 400 HP (GT2, GT3, RSR’s, etc.), but those engines are not based upon the M96 found in the Boxster/Cayenne; they are entirely different engines……….

Having 300hp in a car that weighs just over a ton and a half with 11:1 compression ratio and the high torque output may surprise you. That being said the Boxster really excels in handling right off the showroom floor and is what I bought mine for. I've had all kinds of performance cars, including the Mustang, try to keep up with my 201hp Boxster in the winding roads through the mountains and they can't do it. Straight away they would have an advantage but life is not always about strait aways. The Boxster's agility can be used to out perform some seriously high horse power machines on a track.

Hey, Cody -

If you're really a horsepower guy, do not buy a Boxster. Get yourself a late 90's Vette (LS7, maybe?) for about 20K and strap a blower to that bish.

You will not make bigger numbers in a Boxster without spending a crapload of money. Even the 2009 Porsche 911GT2 "only" makes 530HP - and that'll set you back $180K.

An LS7 with stock internals can make 580 horsepower with the addition of 8K worth of Procharger. Build the block and turn the boost up to 14PSI, and you'll make around 800. Of course, you won't be able to turn ever again, and you will go through tires like Oprah goes through Chocodiles. And, of course, If you take that 800HP beast to an autocross, you will probably get beaten by stock Boxsters.

If you want a Boxster for what it is - a great handling, classically beautiful sports car, get one now! They're practically giving used Boxsters away. If on the other hand you're looking for a car that will make a decent showing at the 1/4 mile track, you probably want to keep looking.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

A high power, force induction m96 can be made, but a lot of the cast parts need to be replaced to handle the increased forces. The cylinders themselves probably need to be replaced with "nickies" as well to avoid ovaling. Porsche parts and labor expertise are very much more expensive than Fords. By the time you've built a 700hp boxster, you will have been able to buy an entire stable of Mustangs.

We are already north of 300RWHP from an N/A M96 3.2 base engine taken to 3.6 liters with bore increases and cylinder head/ camshaft manipulation. I can also add one of our billet stroker cranks to the engine and then make it into a 3.8 or 4 liter engine.. All from a 3.2 base engine that needs no conversion done to the car at all, rip the engine out and reinstall what I turn it into.

The factory didn't want any of this done.. They crippled these engines but we have found the limitations. People called us crazy for working with these engines, and maybe we were, but no one is making more power!

What the Boxster needs is torque more than HP...

I have a 500HP Turbo engine in the works now, we already have all the components to support this developed and I know which heads lend themselves to boost more than all others.

That said, 300 RWHP in a Boxster in a well prepped car will give a GT3 a really hard time, one of my customers has already done that.. The key is not upsetting the car's balance.

If you want power it's just a phone call away.

Cody,

Don't buy a Porsche thinking it's another muscle car, it's not. It's more than that and if you purchase one you'll find yourself in a whole new mindset of performance automobiles.

Think of it this way Cody...there's a joke about an old bull and a young bull on a hilltop overlooking a field of cows. The young bull says "Lets run down there and "do" one of those cows." The old bull looks at him and says "Lets walk down there, and "do" 'em all."

Porsche does 'em all.

a 4.0
 

talk to me jake. a 4.0 what kind of torque we lookin at with a 4.0, how much$?

The 4.0 is not an efficient combo as of yet.. The RPM range isn't as broad as it should be/ will be with further enhancement.

I'll post some charts tomorrow.

BTW- I learned that bigger isn't better a long, long time ago.. Size isn't magical.

Thanks guys, i know im not looking for a muscle car, and i know what a muscle car is, and as much fun as it was, i am looking for something different. Thehe great price of used boxers is too much to pass up. I know this car is not about horsepower. I would mainly want it for the awesome handling and prestige. And i know the engine has problems with the ims and so forth. And believe me, that is already gonna be taken care of right off the bat. I am working that in with the price of the car, because i feel it a necessity. But at some point, i know i am gonna want more power.

If i do get a boxster, i would plan on twin turbocharging the car when i got the money and of course that would mean new stronger internals. But would it be better to get a raby engine, or would it be better to try to fit a x50 or x51 from a gt2 or turbo and then not have to worry about power? Those engines seem pretty stout as those were based off the gt1. And i would really like to get a gt2 or turbo but of course the price of a 911 is ridiculous compared to a boxster and way out of my price range at the moment.

Cody, I will have to agree with the replies you've received so far about the Boxster vs Mustang. My nickname was Mustang Manny for years because I was a Mustang enthusist and owned 8 total, most V-8s and one was a Cobra. I enjoyed all of them but none could compare with my Boxster in the way it handles and feels. If you have not driven one yet, then you need to and if you are still thinking of the Boxster vs Mustang power differences, perhaps a muscle car is for you. What matters most is that you are happy with the type of car you've chosen.

TPC has a turbo kit for cayman/boxster and they have some good results.

Having owned numerous cars including 4 mustangs (3 gt's) It didn't take long to nail down a few of the biggest differences between My Stangs and my Boxster s.

1.) Every 7th car I pass on the road isn't a Boxster.
2.) The minute I hit the back road twisties, I realize I would have ditched my mustang at half the speed.
3.) Gas mileage seemed to be much better in my Boxster.
4.) I never smiled like I do now in a mustang.

Hey don't get me wrong, I loved my mustangs. Seeing I never drag raced them, I felt the need to evolve into a total driving experience not just a rocket attached to 4 wheels. Last time I checked the real world has curves and hills.

Put it this way.... If I ever had the need to lose somebody chasing me in a mustang, corvette or maybe a crown vic ( :D ) give me my boxster "s" on some twisties every time!!!!!!!! :cheers:

From what I've read, the GT engine isn't a simple swap-in for the Boxster.

I have not yet been able to test drive a boxster, but i am almost positive that i want the boxster for my next car. And it will probably just reinforce the fact once i do test drive one. I guess i was just hoping that there was a way to get the power of a 911 turbo into a boxster being the same engine design. But if there simply is not, then so be it. I will just have to save my pennys for a 911 965 or 996 turbo some day!

Thanks again guys, you have all been really helpful!

like i said check out TPC racing they have some good claims and also like u said urself jake has some good modifications. i think what just has to be realized is that when it comes dollars per HP the boxster is alot more expensive than a mustang

Man, Mustang owners love coming here and asking this very question.
Can someone please tell the Mustang owners that its pointless to compare Mustang hp numbers vs Boxster hp numbers.

Since Mustang owners think things are so simple, let me make the response as simple as I can:

Why are you comparing hp numbers between a Mustang V-8 vs a Boxster 6?

Do you not understand that your small V-6 engine is larger than any engine offered in a Boxster, ever? Why aren't you demanding Ford make that V-6 put out 300 hp? Hell, its a 4L engine. They should make it put out 350 hp, easily.

Your V-8 engines have 2 extra cylinders in comparison to the Boxster engine.
Its very easy to make more power when you slap on 2 extra cylinders, and nearly double the engine displacement.

Another thing you need to keep in mind is the engine location, and heat dispersal. The Boxster engine is in the center of the car, and adding a turbo or supercharger increases the engine temps quite dramatically. The engine is already teetering on the brink in stock form, yet you want to force in an extra 100-300 hp?

Don't you think that if it was cheap and easy to build 300 to 500 hp Boxsters, we would all be running around with them?

BC.

Sorry to upset you bladecutter. I'm just looking for information about a possible future investment. I know the numbers are different simply because they are completly different cars. I am wanting a change, which i have CLEARLY stated many times below, and i feel a porsche boxster is what i am looking for. It just is hard for me to wrap my mind around the amount of money it takes to mod one of these things, and that the amount of money some people shell out to do so couldn't build a bigger monster. It would occur to me that some places could completely custom fabricate forged internals for 10k easy, but that doesn't seem to be the case with these cars, that seems to be about half what it takes to rebuild a motor. This is a whole new environment for me and im just trying to see if this is really the route that i want to go.

I have seen some porsche's lay down some world class power and times and was investigating if i could get that much power out of a boxster. I am not looking for another mustang. Again, not trying to compare the cars, i clearly stated i had my fun with my mustang and want something different. HOWEVER i will always like to make a car faster, even if its a kia rio, simply because i am a gear heard. I love working on cars. No matter what it is. And i just am looking for some information about how i could do that with the car that i am looking into buying next.

im about to do some research comparing the cost for a ford marque emblem versus a porsche hood emblem and the corrolation between the price differences of those compared to the cost of mods :dance:


so far i found the ford emblem 24 dollars, porsche 73 dollars... find the % difference... and im pretty sure that is close to what lets say the difference for an exhaust mod will be.. or even headlight mod. etc

im jealous of my buddy he gets good gains on his GT for close to nothing.





this is all just for laughs by the way...but really i might be onto something

Haha, thats neat. That would be a 329% increase. compare that the average muffler price of a mustang of the same model year of a boxster would be roughly 400 for both mufflers. that would come out to be $1316 for an exhaust? That is pretty close as far as what i have seen in my research.

The Porsche engine's are not exactly the same as your typical internal combustion engine that you see in every car on the road. They are designed entirely differently internally, and have been built to a certain spec, and to a certain budget.

The engines require a very specialized set of tools, and require a highly skilled technician in order to assemble them properly. You can rebuild the motor in your Mustang simply by buying a box of tools at your local Sears. You can't get any of the specialized tools that you need for the Porsche engine's at Sears.

So currently, you would need to buy a built engine from one of the few sources, and then swap it into your car. To do that, you need to drop $10k on a running Boxster, then spend $20k on a hot motor, another $3k to have the engines swapped, and you might be able to get $4k for your used engine, depending on miles and size, if its in good shape. So for $29k, you will have a hot Boxster that will destroy most other vehicles out there in the twisty stuff, and power out of corners with authority.

For $29k, you can buy a whole lot of other cars that would be much easier to build bigger hp numbers from.

What I would recommend that you do first is to go to your local Porsche dealer, and test drive a Boxster, and see if you even like it. Then decide how much money you have in the till, and go from there.

I spent all day driving my '98 Boxster in the mountains today here in Colorado, so I know why you would want one, if you have great roads to drive in near you. If you don't live in an area where there are great roads, just building a high hp Boxster is going to be an extremely expensive hobby that will most likely leave you frustrated.

There's a lot to think about, and mull over.

BC.

To answer your question, as opposed to making yet another self-reassuring, smug reply about how "Porsche power is different than Ford power" ( :barf: ), the basic answer to your question above is that the GT1/GT2/Turbo 911 engines are mounted 180 degrees differently from the M96 in the Boxster, so it's not just a matter of swapping internals.

As for why the Boxster parts & labor cost so much more overall, it's a simple matter of development cost and volume. How many national Ford tuners are there out there, not to mention small-town shops that can build you a 400 RWHP small block Ford or Chevy for $5k or less? (Been there, done that.) Literally hundreds, because of the volume of Ford and Chevy guys that are looking to have the work done.

The Boxster was sold in much, much smaller volumes, and an even smaller percentage of Boxster owners have any interest at all in modding their cars. So the few tuners that are out there can charge a premium (and have to, really, if they want to cover their costs and stay in business... Can't begrudge them that).

Put simply, if you want big power numbers for low cost in a car that still handles at a world-class level, buy a 'Vette. (And yes, you WILL still be able to turn. :rolleyes: ) But from everything I've read, the seats will not be as comfortable, the steering will not feel as precise, and you'll be missing out on the overall handling confidence that the Boxster provides.

Everything is a tradeoff.

Hope this helps. :cheers:

Thank you very much Banana S, that is what i was looking for. I guess it now comes down to whether the 3.2 is really worth it vs the 2.7 or even 2.5, and i have seen some threads about that. I really appreciate you help guys.

Cheers, Cody :cheers:

As a few post have mentioned.. Quick and easy answer is

http://www.tpcracing.us/

Look on the following site for a few cars that have already had this turbo modification done

http://www.planetporsche.net/cayman-boxster-modifications/


Much bigger bang for buck than swapping to a bigger engine, or trying to put a 911 turbo engine in, which from what I understand is much much harder to do than say a carrera 3.6 or 3.8.

Or you could do what one of their customers did and put in a 3.8 and THEN turbo charge it. Best of both worlds.

i think that if you goal is to eventually get as much power as you can out of a box then you should go with a 3.2 or a 3.4 because those blocks will give you the most potential. even though there are many ways to get power or speed (something to keep in mind losing weight is always a good sometimes very cheep start something most mustang guys overlook) but in the end there is no replacement for displacement...


but btw i have a 2.7 and i love her :dance:

IMHO, go for the Boxster S. It's much more than just an engine upgrade. Brakes, suspension, gearbox, heck even the gauges are different. And you can find relatively low-mileage examples for under $20k right now if you look hard enough.

Good luck with your decision. :cheers:

I've read this thread with a bit of interest since I switched from a Cobra to a Boxster a couple of years back. As you've noted Alloy, they're two completely different types of vehicles. From what I can recall most mods in the Mustang world were aimed at increasing HP and getting it put down (my partner just had a roots type of supercharger put onto his newer Saleen Mustang with injectors and a tune, $6300 for 160 HP increase....wow), in cruising this website and other Porsche related ones you'll find more interest in balance / handling mods. No doubt, more HP and torque is always great but strangely enough my Boxster S seems to have just enough. I must be getting old lol.

So much of this conversation has to do with where you live, or where you are forced to live due to work or family or whatever.

I live in flat, hot, humid, Houston, Texas. It's just about the worst place in the world to be located as a drop top mid engine Porsche owner.

It's too hot to enjoy the top down 8 months out of the year. The 'winters' here are wet and cool and not much fun for it either. By my calendar, I get about 14-21 days of good top down driving weather every year here.

Then there's the lack of twisty roads. Short of paying for track time 4-6 times a year with the PCA, the mid engine location in the boxster is wasted.

I love the lines of my car, but I do a lot of straight line driving and highway cruising with the top up.

For me, a 911 or a Corvette would be the sports car to own, depending on how much cash I had to spend. I'm not selling my boxster any time soon because it's paid for, but should it get totaled, I'll be buying one of these instead.

I enjoy straight line performance... mostly because I have no twisty roads to drive unless I want to make 3+ hour journey to find them. This is why I made my DD a BMW 550i.

Of course, when I retire in 15 years and coerce my wife into selling our inner city home and moving to Robbinsville...

The only good thing about aging is my car feels faster every spring, I'd like it to have more power but the truth is it's quite a bit faster and far more capable than most of the cars it shares the road with. I will know by February whether I am getting permanent hours, then Mr. Raby and I will need to discuss among ourselves...

"That said, 300 RWHP in a Boxster in a well prepped car will give a GT3 a really hard time, one of my customers has already done that.. The key is not upsetting the car's balance." Quote Jake Raby

This is very true. Still more power can be made by adding displacement (LS1 motor) or adding a turbo, but then you have a car that is a lot more difficult to keep the shiny side up. :o The car is so well balanced that too much power becomes a problem. I spent some time this weekend in a highly modified 944 Turbo S at the track. A very fast car but difficult to drive fast. The basic rule is " When the car comes on boost, make sure the steering wheel is straight... even if you are mid-corner, make sure the wheel is straight. :eek: We turned some fast laps but it was a lot of work and we were very inconsistent. Several times I thought we were going in the weeds.

My little 2.5 Boxster is a push button sports car. Easy to drive at 10/10ths and easy to reel back in when needed. It can be driven very consistently lap after lap with no issues. By choosing more technical tracks and avoiding the super speedways the Boxster is in it's element.

A brilliant summary from Jake!
 

That said, 300 RWHP in a Boxster in a well prepped car will give a GT3 a really hard time, one of my customers has already done that.. The key is not upsetting the car's balance.

This is really the deal, and I might add, the car that the factory should sell for the price is charges for a Box or Cayman.

My 325 HP Boxster is amazing! The torque and sound are just blow your mind. I've test drove BMW's M3 and 335i 6 speed (they run low 13's?) and my boxster feels light speeds faster and thats with Boxster headers not the bigger 3.4 ones. After test driving them i realized how much i wanted to keep my Boxster even though its set me back a pretty penny (around 20K)...

Bladecutter I love the boxster too but there is no magic in these engines. Just because the factory refuses to sell parts and give out specs really doesnt make them special.

As for requiring specialized tools that is true in some cases ( to make a job easier ) but all makers have some differences in the engine and design. Keep in mind there is no "Engines R Us" where everyone else goes to buy except Porsche that thereby keeps them simple to work on with just an adjustable wrench.

Just a opportunity for the factory to make more money on the customer base.

:cheers:

I still build engines for the Boxster's predocessor, the 914.. When I build those engines I am adding at least 75HP to the stock engine's output, sometimes well over 100HP more.

When I apply this much power to these vehicles the results are generally upsetting to the car's balance. Many times it takes someone a full season of autocross with the big engine to get their times as good as they were with the stock 2 liter, because the car is smoking the tires and is less than controllable while on the hammer.

To finally counteract the upset of the car an LSD has to be used along with thousands more dollars of suspension and transaxle mods, but even after all that the car really isn't much faster than it used to be with 100 less HP. The car is a real hoot to drive as its sliding sideways, so people love it, even though their time slips don't illustrate that very well.

The Boxster has proven to be the same animal, when adding power one must take extreme precautions not to overpower the car and upset it's balance. I focus on three things with a Boxster engine:

1- More usable RPM range, make the power come on earlier and stay on longer- get rid of the peaky power band that starts to pull at 4K RPM.

2- Add torque, because torque is king with a car that weighs 1-1/2 tons. Torque is what makes people LOVE to drive the car, much more than HP. Torque is what wins races, HP is what sells engines.

3- Throttle response. Add a ton of it and make the engine as responsive to throttle position changes as possible.

Its not how much power you make, its where that power is made and the compromises that surround it as a trade off.

I try to create engines without compromise, we get more MPG, run cooler and make more power at every RPM over stock with every street combo I have created.

The "Bigger is better" crowd is always the easiest to beat. They beat themselves.

+1 The engines aren't especially exotic compared to most. Porsche simply built them to hold together (most of the time) at the power levels that they make from the factory, there's no overdesign in margin to either save cost or weight or both.

My 98 3.6 Boxster is a beast, looking for a 3.8 to put in my 2001.

As Jake has stated the car's balance changes, it took a couple of spins until I learned when not to floor it.

" Hmmmm...Mustang,,,,,,,real tough car"(Outsiders 1981?). If you want horsepower and an uncontrollable rear axel buy another Mustang. I have a mint, 2000 speed yellow box "S", 6 speed manual, no tip. I have owned and worked on, all kinds of cars, fast and slow. No, it is not lightning in a bottle, but this car is plenty fast, perfectly balanced and very funnnnnn! You have no idea what this car is. Drive it, then come back and talk about it. IMO you'll get sucked in just like all the rest of us.