update on exhaust issues... can anyone help?

[blinkwatt]

Has anyone had their car dynoed after converting it to RoW spec?(Preferably a 3.2L)

[tholyoak]

As I stated in my PM, there is no performance gain by converting to the ROW program.

-Todd

[CJ_Boxster]

Originally Posted by tholyoak

As I stated in my PM, there is no performance gain by converting to the ROW program.

-Todd

Todd, what differences are there from US spec ECu to a ROW ecu? would you happen to know all the differences?

[tholyoak]

There are actually a few 'ROW' programs, but I assume the one you are interested in, is the one that doesn't use post cat sensors. This obviously only use pre-cat sensors to control the mixture, ignores the need to depress the clutch to start the car, doesn't use the air pump for cold starts. Also it is virtually impossible to get a CEL as the tolerances are much greater on the ROW program. Those are the differences off the top of my head.

In earlier Porsches, the engines were higher compression and used higher octane in europe and thus used a more aggressive map (timing) than the USA/Canada program. Therefore a performance advantage was gained. This is no longer true, at least on the Boxster.

-Todd

[CJ_Boxster]

Originally Posted by tholyoak

There are actually a few 'ROW' programs, but I assume the one you are interested in, is the one that doesn't use post cat sensors. This obviously only use pre-cat sensors to control the mixture, ignores the need to depress the clutch to start the car, doesn't use the air pump for cold starts. Also it is virtually impossible to get a CEL as the tolerances are much greater on the ROW program. Those are the differences off the top of my head.

In earlier Porsches, the engines were higher compression and used higher octane in europe and thus used a more aggressive map (timing) than the USA/Canada program. Therefore a performance advantage was gained. This is no longer true, at least on the Boxster.

-Todd

I see, thanks for the info Todd!

[Topless]

Originally Posted by mn box s

I realize. No cats here. Most people that run no cats will tie the rears up. I guess my next step is to weld in bungs for the 02 and try another set of cheaters on those. From what I have understood though was that the wide band 02s are the front ones and the closed loop 02s are the rears to double check whats going on in front of them. Thats why on other cars you can get away with tying them up.

Or... You could put the cats back on, the o2 sensors back in and drive a smog legal car that runs great and has no error codes. Just a thought.

[CJ_Boxster]

I found a guy that can do the flash here in So cal. PM me if you want contact info.

[mn box s]

Well I found that GIAC won't delete the cats but I have tracked down someone from Motronic that said they can set the car up with a race program that does delete the 02s and will give some performance gains at least to accommodate my upgrades and program set up for nitrous. He will probably getting back to me today. Ill update you on what he has to say.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by mn box s

Well I found that GIAC won't delete the cats but I have tracked down someone from Motronic that said they can set the car up with a race program that does delete the 02s and will give some performance gains at least to accommodate my upgrades and program set up for nitrous. He will probably getting back to me today. Ill update you on what he has to say.

I'm going to predict that it will be cheaper just to put the cats back on than that ECU reflash.

[mn box s]

Ok enough already! I'm not a quitter nor am I a stand by and watch my mechanic kind of guy. I'm on this forum to get advise/ help with the 3.2L Boxster as I've only owned one so far and haven't even had to take the motor out yet. There are however many on this site that have. YES it WOULD be easier to put the cats back on YES it would be CHEAPER too. I don't give a poop about that. I am interested in making more power out of what little room we all have to play with. If I have to be the pioneer that figures things out so be it. Where the hell would you be with out people like me anyway? If you don't want to help a fellow Box owner figure out a different way, fine, but don't post the obvious just to get in your .02. To the rest of you that are actually helping thank you very much!

[Topless]

Originally Posted by mn box s

Ok enough already! I'm not a quitter nor am I a stand by and watch my mechanic kind of guy. I'm on this forum to get advise/ help with the 3.2L Boxster as I've only owned one so far and haven't even had to take the motor out yet. There are however many on this site that have. YES it WOULD be easier to put the cats back on YES it would be CHEAPER too. I don't give a poop about that. I am interested in making more power out of what little room we all have to play with. If I have to be the pioneer that figures things out so be it. Where the hell would you be with out people like me anyway? If you don't want to help a fellow Box owner figure out a different way, fine, but don't post the obvious just to get in your .02. To the rest of you that are actually helping thank you very much!

Then you will need o2 sensors in place and working or your ECU won't know what to do. Without o2 sensors your car will go into limp mode and run lousy. Throw away the cheaters and ask edevelin how he resolved this issue. I think it took several months of trial and error but he did get it resolved. Good luck.

No reason to get hostile here. Everyone has a right to have an opinion even if it is different than yours. Others will surely read this thread and find interest in both views. Maybe we can all learn something about these cars.

[edevlin]

"Throw away the cheaters and ask edevelin how he resolved this issue. I think it took several months of trial and error but he did get it resolved. Good luck."

Try six months or so. I started out with a stock 2.7L Boxster and first put in a cold air intake and an Autothority chip and and the car was running great, no cel's. I decided to add headers and 100-cell cats and 4 new factory oxygen sensors to the car, and that is when the CEL's started up.

We played with extending the cables to the rear oxygen sensors, moved the sensors deeper into and out of the exhasut stream, moved sensor bungs along the exhaust stream, and more.

Ended up replacing 3 of the new oxygen sensors, both cats and as a final measure slightly reprogramming the threshold for triggering the oxygen sensor CEL in the ECU. The whole time the car was running great, it just kept giving CEL's. Even after all the hassle and expense, I still marvel at these engines, my little 2.7L just humms and last week it put out 210 hp to the wheels with 100-octane fuel, great fun

Ed

:dance:

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by mn box s

Ok enough already! I'm not a quitter nor am I a stand by and watch my mechanic kind of guy. I'm on this forum to get advise/ help with the 3.2L Boxster as I've only owned one so far and haven't even had to take the motor out yet. There are however many on this site that have. YES it WOULD be easier to put the cats back on YES it would be CHEAPER too. I don't give a poop about that. I am interested in making more power out of what little room we all have to play with. If I have to be the pioneer that figures things out so be it. Where the hell would you be with out people like me anyway? If you don't want to help a fellow Box owner figure out a different way, fine, but don't post the obvious just to get in your .02. To the rest of you that are actually helping thank you very much!

Pioneer, good one. Maybe you should calm down a little.

[mn box s]

calm here, not trying to be a dick, another .02 I see blue2000s...

Any way thanks edevlin I also tried extending my 02s and putting them farther down the pipes. So you are saying put the 02s back in the stream up front? Edevlin did you have a wandering idle?

I would also like to add to the people who don't seem to understand why so much work to stay this way. I have absolutely NO resonance at ANY rpm! also can barley here the exhaust with the windows up unless really on it.(hard top) From out side though it is a beast, plain and simple. One last thing it makes whopping power over having cats. I have not dynoed yet but by seat of pants and runs against a testing car gave me 4 car lengths 60-100 mph. I will say I'd bet I might have lost a little bottom end before 4k rpm.

Testing car 03' M3 with exhaust. Before the exhaust and intake he dissapeared into the horizon. After intake, and exhaust (M3 was in sight!) headers (8 car lenthes!) test pipes and no cats ( 3-4 car lengths back and locked up!) I'm hoping after re-programming that I'm even. Who here can take an M3 with exhaust? What have you done? Sorry about the long post.

[tholyoak]

Sorry to disagree but you are not gaining any performance going with no cats vs welding in some good 100 or 200 cell sport cats into those test pipes. Alternatively you could just buy some Dansk sport cats to replace the test pipes. I use these on 3.4 conversions. Either one of these will solve all of your ECU issues, not reduce performance and be more socially responsible by reducing the emission levels from your car.

-Todd

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by mn box s

calm here, not trying to be a dick, another .02 I see blue2000s...

You make a comment towards me, I respond, that's the way it works.

[mn box s]

tholyoak do you do just a pair of these cats? what do you do with the rear 02s? How does more restriction gain power on top end of power band? If you have good luck with this set up I am interested but still don't see how it would make more power than w/o.

Blue2000s wanna race? or park your car next to mine at a car show? thats what I thought. No more comments from me directed at you. If you have more than .02 towards this post I'll oblige.

[edevlin]

"Edevlin did you have a wandering idle?"

I never had a problem with a wandering idle, the car was running fine. We really dont know what the problem was in my setup. We actually tried several different versions of the ECU tune to try to dial it in for the 2000 2.7L Boxster with modified intake and exhaust systems.

I could have gotten bad cats or bad sensors. It could have been that I was running too rich on one of the earlier programs and buggered up the sensors and cats, could have been a problem with extending the wire or the locations of the bungs, who knows.

The ECU tune I ended up with is really sweet. As you can see from the graph I posted earlier, the torque curve is very, very flat, quite noticable behind the wheel. The tune was optimized not for max hp, but for responsiveness.

Ed

[mn box s]

Just got off the phone from ?protomotors? ecu reflash, durametric cable, softtronic software can pull diffrent tunes depending on if running nitrous or not. The price for the original reflash for evo intake, headers, no cats, and exhaust. With mild performance gains and no cel issues. $995.

Can anyone respond to this?

Additional re tunes run $695 which comes with the cables to download myself after program has been tweaked.

[Topless]

Ed has shown us that you can get a modest, reliable power increase with headers, intake and a careful ECU remap tune designed for his car. It can also go the other way. Here is a guy with Che headers and jury rigged o2 sensors on a 2001 S:
http://www.986forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15381

He had other issues as well but if the o2 sensors were in and working, and he paid attention to the CEL and error codes he would probably still be driving his car. I have not heard an update but I suspect his 3.2L motor is now a fine $8k German boat anchor. Be careful.