How Much Should Damage History Affect Value?
 

I'm looking at a Boxster that shows rear end collision on the Carfax. Happened over 10 years ago, not with my Seller, but with the prior owner. Seller says he was told it was a very minor low speed impact and only required repair (not replacement) of the rear bumper cover and nothing else. Work was professionally done, and the current pictures don't show any signs of damage. No photos of the original damage, no body shop bill. I asked.

I have no reason to doubt my Seller, however, the fact of the matter is, is that he doesn't really know what happened, nor do I. So let's assume that it is in fact the minor low speed damage that it was stated to be, doesn't affect appearance and driveability, and that nothing is uncovered on a PPI regarding this. Fact still remains that it is a stain on the vehicle's history. Obviously, if you hypothetically took two identical cars, one with this history, one without, the one with the damage history is going to sell for less. (Many buyers won't even consider a car with damage history, even if minor and professionally, competently repaired.)

So how much less? On an '03 I would figure there should be roughly a $2,000 difference. Sound about right, assuming the above facts?

Red flag #1. No way to know if the work was really professionally done.


Red flag #2. Always doubt the seller. Unless its in writing (or can otherwise be confirmed), you have to assume it's not true.

We all want to believe in our fellow man, but a lot of people have no problem lying to your face when selling a car.

I spent over $2,000 on unplanned repairs on my Boxster when I bought it with a blown engine. The seller assured me that there was NOTHING else wrong with the car except the engine. Nothing. He was emphatic, sincere, and seemed like a genuinely nice guy. And he was a liar. Unless you have a lot of spare cash laying around with no where to go, don't be me.


I'd say 15%-25% less. That might sound harsh but the buyer is taking all of the risk.

And speaking of risk, a mandatory PPI would include an inspection by a body shop to confirm that the repair was done properly and that the chassis is in alignment.

10 yrs is a while ago, but the important question is how many miles since the "incident"? And how many owners since the incident? That is more useful info.

An 03 is 15 yrs old. Stuff happens to cars that are driven. Yes, there are pristine examples out there but there are also examples that have some nicks. Of course they're going to tell you it was minor. If an inspections shows replacement inner construction panels welded in, then it wasn't minor. At that point you should walk away since you don't know what other lies are lurking.

And the final point - the money you save at purchase of a damage repaired car is the money you lose when you sell it.

It's 11 years, about 30k miles, and one additional owner (i.e., my Seller) since then.

Undoubtedly, I would walk away if that happened. But if an inspection reveals nothing except a little bondo and repaint, no reason to walk away from an otherwise good car, IMHO. Like you said, 15 years, stuff happens. Only issue is how much the issue diminishes value.

FWIW, my Seller bought the car about 15 months ago, he did a PPI at a Porsche dealer, I saw the report and there was no mention of anything. Of course they might have missed it.

Exactly why I'm focused on it. When it comes time for me to sell, my Buyer will be asking the same questions and thinking the same things that I am.

I had a '01S which was hit in the rear. $1200 or so. Stretch the bumper cover, replace the shocks and the bumper bar. A few bolts and screws. No body panel or light damage. I did use the opportunity to get the Bumperettes painted along with the bumper. 5 years later, couldn't tell the difference and a PPI couldn't even find it. I sold with full verbal disclosure and written repair order and after incident picture available but not even viewed. Had they looked the newer parts could even have been a plus.

Use it as a reason to get the seller to OK the PPI and then maybe $500 or whatever you can get the seller to give you. Some will to sell especially in this season. Some won't. There are hundreds out there..

How much do you feel your sales price was discounted due to the accident vs. the car with a clean history?

How many mph was the collision?

y'all, just my opinion, but I think this is just a tad silly for a 15-20 year old car that will NEVER be a collectible. Nor will it EVER be worth more than it is right now.

Cars get hit. Cars get repaired. If it doesn't drive right, isn't properly aligned, squeaks or rattles more than it oughtta, or otherwise shows signs of improper repair, then steer clear.... or get a smokin' bargain on it. But if none of that is true, then don't worry about it.

And if you're worried about the resale on it, I wouldn't. There are far more buyers like me, who couldn't care less what the carfax says (as long as it doesn't show lies that have been covered-up), than there are buyers who want a "perfect" car for their money. Just be as honest as your own first-hand knowledge of the car and its history allows you to be when you sell.

Maytag, I think that's excellent advice. I'm ok with buying a car that's had a damage history, some guys would avoid it like the plague. But I wanna make sure that the damage was minor, professionally repaired, that there are no issues like the ones you mentioned, and that I don't overpay. Simple as that.

I’m with Maytag.
On a 15-20 year old car, If you wouldn’t know about the damage unless you read about, what difference does it really make? Sure, with two very similar cars, on with damage is worth less but I doubt it’s more than a few hundred dollars or so.

There are probably more 15 year old cars out there that have had undocumented minor collision repair than those that show on CarFax. To me, the car is what it physically is as presented for sale. Don't trust CarFax, don't trust the seller, trust the actual condition as verified in a detailed inspection. If you are spending a sum that is significant to you, have a PPI by a reputable third party.

$2,000 difference from what? KBB? Cars.com? No. There are just too many variables in the care and condition of a car that age. My offer (or bottom $ as seller) would be specific to the condition of that car, which could vary a couple thousand regardless of mileage. Again, PPI and how the car is Now.
I would pay significantly less for a car with a branded title (Rebuilt, Flood, Repo, etc.). Not for any worry, but because to me, the title is part of the car and a brand is unrepairable damage.

I concede that my opinions may be contrary to other good advice and I have no special skill at buying and selling cars. Just throwing it out there to fill out the discussion.
:dance:

That's absolutely true. But we can only deal with what we know, not what we don't know. Carfax's limitation is not what they tell you, but what they don't tell you. Carfax doesn't know everything.


The "$2,000" that I mentioned was what I would guestimate the difference would be in sales price between two hypothetical identical cars, except that one has a (non-structural) damage history and the other one has a clean history. I understand that there are lots of other variables, and that a used car, particularly a 15 year old one, is not a commodity like the way a new car is.

I think you're over thinking this and alot of the other subjects you have posted about. Just find one you like make an offer and buy one,done. Buying a boxster is a bit of a risk. You have to except the fact that you might get burned but the reward should be worth the risk. It was for me. There is no 100 percent perfect car at this age. According to some they were all flawed from the get go.

+1
I'm amazed at how ridiculously obsessive some people (not specifically referring to OP) are about buying a 15 yr old used car with any sort of defect. If you tried to lowball my car for $2000 as that seller, I'd tell you to walk away

agreed

Did the seller state why he/she is getting rid of the car after only 15 months? The short term ownership would bother me more than the accident 10 years ago.

When I was looking to buy mine I stayed away from ones where someone owned it for a year and was selling or one that had 5 owners.

If the owner who had the accident kept and drove the car for an additional ~9 years, that accident probably didn't destroy it as a good driver. But I would want a new PPI to ensure there isn't a new, major issue causing the seller to bail on the car.

Ben & Jmitro,

Guys, I've bought many used cars in my life, only bought 2 new cars in my life, never got a bad used car, only real good ones, I've checked them out myself, never had a shop do a PPI on them. I've always paid a fair price for the used cars I bought -- never rock bottom, never sky high. I know what's involved in buying a used car. But buying a 5 year old VW or a 2 year old CPO BMW is not the same thing as buying a 15 year old Boxster. I owned one Porsche before, about 30 years ago, and that was bought new. Wasn't at all familiar with the early Boxsters.

So I wanted to bone up on my knowledge about the early Boxsters, learn about the potential problem areas, know what to look out for, get a good sense of what's a fair price, and generally, be a smart buyer. Not obsessive compulsive, just trying to be careful, go into with my eyes wide open, rather than as a bumbling idiot.

I'm new on this Forum and I appreciate all of the great advice and info I received from everyone.

Any doubt take it to TKX Performance in Huntington Station for a PPI. Taso and crew are excellent.

TY for the recommendation, but this particular car is in TX, so the PPI will be done there. We're still a little bit apart on price, so it's a "maybe" right now.

Locally, I have a great Porsche indy shop 15 minutes away from me here in Westchester. The place has a stellar reputation. Every Porsche guy I run into in the area sings their praises. They'll be servicing my car once I find one.

But funny you should mention Huntington Station. I looked at a 2006 987 S at Habberstad BMW about a month ago (it's still available). Price was a little high and it felt good, but not great. If I wanted to pursue it, I would have been asking around for a good Porsche indy shop nearby for a PPI, but that one's off the list.

The guy got the Porsche bug and just bought a 911. Doesn't need/want the Boxster anymore. And I spoke to the local PCA club, and they know the guy and confirmed that.

Normally I'm a big proponent of knowledge (history, data, specs, etc)... but on occasion, the availability of such info can *sometimes* be a bad thing as they relate to our decision processes. Regarding car backgrounds, the internet now offers more than a wealth of information, unfortunately not all incidents are a "red flag, run away!", and even worse, many times the same "red flags" are not even listed. Given the selective reporting, I suppose it would be wise to weigh all info rather than passing on a car that has a report listed...but having said that, I've done the "accident damage? I'll pass" thing in the past. Now here's where I'll say something controversial...

Accident damage possibly could (or should) increase value....well, on occasion.

As an example... We have an Audi Q5 and about a year ago my wife was involved in a minor accident; at a stoplight, the person in front of her decided they were too far in the intersection and suddenly backed up. On first inspection, it appeared that their bumper only broke the plastic surround around the fog light and caused a minor scrape on the bumper. At the body shop, they found the bumper cover was actually slightly cracked, as well as a few plastic tabs holding the grill. Further inspection showed that a tab on the headlight assembly was broken, as well as a few other plastic clips here and there, as well as (for some reason) a very slight misalignment of the hood.

(This part is only my impression of how *some* body shops work as well as how the whole claim/insurance/adjustment dance happens.) Some shops (I suppose thinking that an adjuster will trim amounts) will write a "pie-in-the-sky" estimate, which would include replacement of anything that they think might be damaged, and in the end, the adjuster approves a smaller amount...or at least that's how I've normally experienced the process...but in this case, the adjuster (for whatever reason) approved the ENTIRE list of what could be done. Maybe it was because a commercial vehicle was involved and that company just approves anything, or maybe, or maybe....

In any event, we ended up with an almost new front end, or at least in appearance. New bumper, grill, fog lights, headlights, hood and a re-spray of everything forward of the A-pillar. Again, there was NO structural or mechanical damage, just cosmetic and a few components, and all parts used were genuine Audi. I failed to mention that our Q5 is a 2010 with (then) about 80,000 miles.

As a result, our car now appears factory new and even has new headlights. Will "accident damage" appear in a report? I suppose. Will it present better than any other 2010 Q5? Definitely. Would a buyer be wary of the "red flag"? Maybe, but if so, will be missing out on a really nice car.

Is it for sale? Nope. Maybe before the repairs, but now it just looks too darn nice.

If someone lowballed me $2g's because the car had a minor fender bender 10 years ago I'd guess I'd suggest they put their offer where the sun don't shine. Not a serious offer! Someone already paid to have the boo boo fixed, one shouldn't have to pay for it again. If it drives okay, looks okay, and passes a PPI get it for whatever you and the seller can agree on.

Not a bit.
 

I came to a stop after a 55 mile stretch of road. Maybe 5 cars in front of me at the light. I'd admit to braking late. Box truck behind me slams on his brakes and swerves areound me. Young gal in a Hyundai behind the box truck couldn't have seen the light and slid into me. Her front end was all mashed up with radiator damage. Me not so much, just scratches visible. Damage underneath to the absorbers and crossbar. Replaced with new OEM. How fast was she going when we hit? Maybe 15? Guessing.

The repair was better than new, bumperettes painted by Eric to match.Paint a perfect match (AS).

Buyer paid my asking price which was $1k below comparables because I live in a small town and no way would I sell it to someone here, just not that kind of place and no way to really advertise it here. So a 3 line honest CL ad and it sold in 4 hours with full disclosure.

So a known owner and a known motive which has been confirmed. Buy it.

+1
What are you waiting for? ;-)

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When I found out my car had an accident I got all nervous and stuff and contacted my mechanic. He said leave as is, car aligns fine, drives fine. He's porsche trained, head mechanic at local dealership and then went indie. I haven't though about it sense. These aren't Newman owned ferraris. Pretty darn close though. 😜

Where in Texas? I know a lot of shops throughout the state that I can recommend for a PPI

Thanks much, but I already got three recommendations from PCA right in the area.

The car is almost 2,000 miles away. There are two others local that I'm also looking at. I'm not in a hurry. If it happens this week, fine. If it happens in a month, that's fine too. If it happens in 3 months, that's also fine. I will own a Boxster soon, trust me. And it will be a good one.

Mike, the big difference there is that you know exactly what happened. This one I'm looking at, I don't know what happened, and my Seller doesn't know what happened. All we both know is that it shows "rear end collision" on Carfax and apparently it was fixed.

My Seller was told by his Seller, "it was a very low speed parking lot bump". I gotta tell ya, I bought two used cars this year, one for myself, one for my son. Several of the cars I looked at had a damage history on Carfax. Without exception, EVERY Seller said, ""it was a very low speed parking lot bump". So while I don't think they all were lying, I also don't think they all were being truthful. And in one case, it was a dealer who INSISTED it was a "very minor collision" and claimed they know this for certain because there is no record of an air bag deployment.

So yeah, I'm a little skeptical.

My 'new to me' 911 Cab has a couple of blemishes on one bumperette and a scratch on the drivers front fender from a screw up by me. I plan to have both repaired this spring. I also plan to take 'before' photos to document the work. The repair will not show up on Carfax but I'll be able to prove the extent of paint work done to the car one day when I decide to sell.

Smart move, and something every car owner should do because when it comes time to sell, Buyers are going to ask questions. If it's a very minor item like yours, and if you have pictures and a body shop bill, no prospective Buyer should care about it.

Nah, I disagree.
I'ma tell the buyer what I know. If he starts asking for before and after pictures of something, ANYTHING, on a $10k car, (or frankly, ANY car that is not, and never will be a collectible) then he's not a serious buyer. I'll tell him to hit the road.

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But a PPI would reveal all. Look around the tail lights under the coverings inside the trunk. Was there any sign of damage, them more than trivial. But if not, then it could easily have been a nothingburger.

Something that is easily determinable.

Good luck in your hunt, there are hundreds out there. Choose wisely.

Do you think you'd want a bodywork man to look at it, or would a Porsche shop doing a PPI be more than adequate?

Thanks, Mike. The hunt is part of the fun of it. And yes, I'll choose wisely.

BoxMann I understand your patience and desire to get a good car. I just have a different view than you. The car has already depreciated so any value when you want to sell it is going to be purely subjective between seller/buyer. Having a bodyman look at a 10 year old repair for is just not necessary IMHO. Maybe for a $50,000 vehicle it would be different, but at this vehicle age and price point, if the car checks out with a PPI then go for it. But as mentioned above, there are lots of cars out there

I've purchased about 20 used Porsches and BMWs in the past 15 years and I've never had a PPI done. To me, fixing the car up is part of the fun. My current project is a $3000 Boxster that was in a minor front end collision :)

JM,

Quite clearly, you're very experienced with used Porsche's and do a lot of major work on them. I'm not in that position at all. I've bought many used cars in my life and never did a PPI on any of them, and never bought a bad one, but I never bought a used Porsche before. Porsche's are a little different than Honda's and VW's. You miss one or two things on a Porsche and that could cost thousands.

Quite possible that after I buy a few used Porsche's over the next 5 or 10 years, I'll be more in your mindset.

Happy New Year, sir.

+ 1 more
 

I agree with maytag and brian on old car's value. I flew 700 mi to p/u 2004 s w/clean carfax only to have honest seller tell me he had hit a deer that summer that did not show on carfax. He gave me all the receipts from mb dealership that performed repairs. I did not get a ppi but he gave me all service records and i spoke at length with his indie mechanic before buying, and after owning the car for 1.5 years it has been a winner. Buyer took $500 less than asking price (cost of my plane ticket) but was not willing to go lower, so i got the car for what i felt was fair and about $3000 less than dealers were asking...

I have to confess I've bought used Boxsters both ways, with and without a PPI. Equally good. But that was 12 to 14 years ago. Today, I'd like a professional to give me his impression of clutch brakes, suspension, let alone engine. At the extreme, I'd want the pan pulled. I have the cash to completely replace anything just not the patience.

My PPI did include a compression and leak down test. That gave me confidence the insides of the engine was solid. It also told me I was going to need $1k in miscellaneous, a complete brake job, new tires and an alignment. That car visited the shop twice in the next five plus years. Once for a seal belt buckle (grounding TSB) and once for a hose leak. None of the items pointed out in the PPI and addressed in the first week of ownership was ever an issue. Thus my pleasure in ownership. How much was it the skill of the man doing the PPI? Well he did set up Porsches for racing and did have really expensive ones in all stages of tear down.