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Cayman sales tidbits
Was chatting with my local Porsche SM the other day. Here are a few musings on the Cayman to date:
Sales have been good, about what they had expected. Very few Cayman buyers are new Porsche buyers. Boxster sales have taken a hit due to Cayman purchases. They have cut down on how many 07 Boxes they have commited to. Former 911 base coupe owners are buying the Cayman vs a base 911. Money is the driving factor. His overall take is that the cannibalism that we chatted about here on this board WAS taking place but he was speaking for his dealership, not Porsche as a whole. Interesting. |
PS- I looked at several base Caymans on the floor. All were MSRP 60K and up.
That is a lot of money for a 245HP car. IMHO |
Hi,
Corporate Greed - it's FANTASTIC! Porsche could have labled it a Boxster Coupe, and staying within the Boxster's Price Point, would have probably increased the sum total. As is, this may imperil the Boxster in future years. I can see Porsche dropping it in favor of a Cayman Cabriolet to increase overall sales and dragging the whole thing upscale $$-wise. Boxster sales have already been dwindling the past 3 years at least and Porsche's nod to purpetuating the 911 (without the Cab, 911 sales are falling at a rate greater than that of the Boxster) may turn out to be a costly mistake. Is another Ice Age coming for Porsche as Cayenne, 911, and now Boxster sales decline? Only the future knows, but it's all happened before... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
I agree, the naming and pricing of the Cayman was bizarre.
I say it's a free market. Porsche is by no means a monopoly and it is free to name and price products as it sees fit (i.e. to maximize profits for its shareholders). On the opposite side are we -- the consumers, also free to maximize the bang for the buck we're paying. For me, the Box S (especially the 3.4L 07) is hands down the relative value winner in the whole Porsche catalogue, and perhaps wider in the whole sports car universe. Companies can be greedy, stupid, or both - that's not necessarily bad for us, consumers. I have a feeling that Porsche knows that it is still far better off with the Cayenne, Boxster, and Caymen (non-911 models) then it would have been by just sticking with an expensive 911 only. Maybe the 911 cannibalization was inevitable, so why not cannibalize it with something of their own? |
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I can see they may be back to the future. . . . base Cayman Cabrio with no leather seats but a $4k option. Argggghhhhh. |
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While I agree with your business model, I don't see where the stats you quote indicate such is the case. Nor does it indicate an overall increase in Unit sales, only the incursion the Cayman is making into Boxster sales (which were declining to begin with). The Cayenne is an anomoly, riding the crest of the SUV craze. But, this wave can end up crashing on the beach. SUV's were attractive to Manufacturers because they initially didn't have to meet safety and CAFE regulations, increasing Unit profit, but they're not the panacea they once were. And, the competition in that segment has erroded Unit profit. All it will take is a public shift and they'll disappear. Does the reemergence of what we used to call Stationwagons signal this is already starting to occur? I don't know, but perhaps. Props to Porsche for sighting and exploiting an opening in this niche, but for how long? Will people forego the '06 models in favor of the more powerful '07s? Maybe, but again, isn't that also akin to stabbing one's own foot? The future in Stuttgart is going to be interesting. Porsche hopefully has a Master Plan aside from merely placating their shareholders short term. If they have a longterm vision, it's difficult to define it or predict whether it's a correct one... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
I don't think think Caymans are/will be cutting into the Boxster sales. I think Boxster pricing is cutting into the Boxster sales. Its way too much moolah for the car, most don't complain because someone with the resources to pay that much for a car isn't hurting financialy thus aren't complaining about its price. But for most non-enthusiasts there are more value oriented options with equal performance. Also its not a dramtically better car than the 986/S and with so many coming into 2nd hand sales markets people aren't obligated to buy a brand spankin new Boxster to get the Boxster experience. The glut of Boxsters coming off leases is depressing the values of the 986 and taking off from 987 sales.
More than a few people on this board have said "should I get a good deal on on 987 or buy a very low mileage 986S". Lots of inventory to make that call nowadays. Now as for the 911 being hurt by the Cayman thats no surpise at all. Give ENTHUSIASTS the choice between mid and rear engine and they think long and hard about forking over more cash for less handling? :confused: ENTHUSIASTS are not posers looking for "a 911" (not that all/most 911 owners are posers) but we knew Porsche was weary of unleashing a mid engine excellent handling coupe because it would make the 911 look over rated. They threw in a tall 1st gear into the Cayman too deliberately slow it down in the 0-60 magazine articles. The economy and market will eventually catch up to all car companies looking to invent their own realities. p.s. a 2nd hand Cayman will have FANTASTIC resale value when the 2nd owner sells. Bullet proof. |
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I don't think we disagree. Part of the problem is the Public ownership of companies today. Boardrooms are forced into short-term thinking and results (think quarterly) and lack the stalward longterm vision which once made many of them great to begin with. So far as capitalizing on declining 911 sales, this only works if you maintian or increase overall Unit sales (which Porsche isn't doing). The past few years' Annual Reports are skewed by the Cayenne's contribution, but were far from reassuring for the rest of the line. To the point where patting each other on the back, or throwing Babies in the air, in the Boardroom may be premature, and this can cloud a company's vision... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
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You've made some excellent points... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
perfectlap:
"Its way too much moolah for the car, most don't complain because someone with the resources to pay that much for a car isn't hurting financialy thus aren't complaining about its price." With the available discounts, a new 987S is very competitive with a used 986S. Add in the peace of mind of the warranty and knowing everything about the car from the beginning and the math becomes more reasonable. Both $40k and $50k is a lot of money -- for some, the extra $10k is worth the benefits they bring. I disagree that afluent people don't take pricing into consideration. They didn't get where they are by not caring about prices of things they buy. Sticking with the new car market, not many things can compete with a sparsely optioned 295hp new Porsche mid-engine roadster if you can get it in the mid $50k area. IMHO, of course. |
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The less afluent complain and walk across the street to the Honda or Saturn dealer and drive home in an S2000 or Sky. This 'dynamic' is very relevant to Porsche. They know they can get away with more and Saturn and Honda are happy to be where they are too, getting the less patient and less monied consumer. A dream scenario for Porsche, make fewer cars with no more performance than many other options, less volume headaches and rake in the dough like nobodys business. |
"I don't think we disagree. Part of the problem is the Public ownership of companies today. Boardrooms are forced into short-term thinking and results (think quarterly) and lack the stalward longterm vision which once made many of them great to begin with."
Frankly, this statement is a bit of nonsense. You are indicting a financing/ownership model because you disagree with Porsche's current product strategy. You are also assuming Porsche WAS a great company and will not be in the future. Big assumptions! How would you propose to own and finance car companies? See many private or government owned car companies out there? I admire BMW's product line and stategy. Public company. Proves nothing of course. The fact is, Porsche has been very successful and in the pst, not so. I don't think you can indict the ownership structure, simply the management who creates the strategy, a strategy BTW that has not FAILED, yet! |
perfectlap:
"If you complain and still pull the trigger its like not complaining at all." I agree. Except I don't see many who have pulled the trigger and complained. On the contrary. :) There's no "complaining" in capitalism. People vote with their $ -- and the market decides what's fair. I wouldn't describe the Saturn and the S2000 as ones of "similar performance" with the Box S. I know it depends on how one defines performance but by my definition (more than just 0-60, hp, etc, numbers) they don't even come close. |
I don't know about the 260 HP/Torque Forced induction Saturn yet, but as far as the S2000 its every bit the sports car of the 987 (987S different story).
There are absolutely no deficiencies in the S2000 when going up against the 986S/987 at the track or Autocross. I've seen the S2000 dozens of times take the same corners and turns as the Boxster and its in every way its equal. Maybe not an EXACT equal but they definitely live on the same block even though their price tags put them in completely different 'real estate markets'. Now as far as prestiege and styling that's completely unrelated to performance. If they made a supercharged S2000 or one with a bigger "motorcycle engine" (like so many spec racers) then the S2000 would be hard to beat. Personally I didn't like the S2000 seating position vs. my Boxster with GT3 seats (no contest) but if not for that I might not have made my way into a Boxster. Ar 9,000 RPMS and the best gear box on the planet (bar none) the Japanese have figured out how to mass produce a car that is all performance at low cost. just wish they made it look more like a Ferrari and less like a import racer. also, if they make a Miata or MR2 with 220 range HP(stock naturally aspirated) then I wouldn't be surprised to see forced induction versions surpassing the 987 and S2000. What I'm saying is that for $50K there are allot of ways to get a EXCELLENT handling/accelerating roadster for daily driving. |
"What I'm saying is that for $50K there are allot of ways to get a EXCELLENT handling/accelerating roadster for daily driving."
I understood all your points. And all were good too. Related to performance or not, there is this "over-engineered" and "robust" feeling that I felt when I first sat into and drove a Porsche. It's still there each time I get into and drive off with my Box S and I don't feel it in any other brand. Getting it for $50k is a bargain... to me -- and obviously to many others who still buy the Box S over the S2000 or the Sky. Part of the attraction is marketing, branding, and image, but a big part of it is still something tangible that's really "there" and that the others just don't have -- either because it would be too expensive for them to do, or simply because they don't know how to do it even if they had the budget. Or in other words, I believe that Porsche COULD build a cheaper car in a similar price range with the others mentioned but it has simply decided not to. Until it has a market that supports it in this decision, it shall continue to do so. |
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Assumptions if you like. But, Corporations, especially Car manufacturers in the past have often been driven by great vision. I believe (IMHO) Public Ownership, while great in many respects, also has the downside of creating near-sightedness on the Board and Managers. As an example, look at how many executive perks are based upon short-term rather than long-term goals. How R&D has shrunk because unless there's a direct link today to the closing price and earnings, budgets are pared. Again, in the Car biz, look at Porshe's successes, and there were many, plot them against the timeline where Ferdi was driving the bus and you'll find a corrolation. Same with Ford. Old Henry took a bath the 2 years after raising the pay to $5, he expected and accepted it. But, the 10 years beyond exceeded his expectations as his own employees were able to become customers as well. A CEO trying these things today would be ********************canned after the 1st annual report or as soon as some institution dumped it's block of stock. If this didn't actually happen, the mere possibility of it can limit the risk that these managers (perhaps not even significant owners) are willing to take. Yes, it's the managers who decide the strategy, but they do so within the structure which exists and this can often be risk averse, so the status quo leads to self-preservation. Will Porsche fail?? Inevitably, the question is when and how. That of course is speculation, and open to opinion, especially when on the outside looking in... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
Hi, one other point that maybe be worth factoring into the discussion...
Porsche is always sampling the competition and adjusting the product line. I can’t image that they’d leave the roadster market to BMW and Audi. bob |
I must admit, I'm really surprised to read about the success of the Cayman.
When I first heard about it, I couldn't imagine why manufacture (or buy) a two-seater *without* a drop top? I always thought the wind in your face was the whole point of a sportscar. |
Interesting thread
I have to say if I was back in the 07 Porsche market and had set a limit to spend $55K for a car, it wouldn't be the 2.7L Cayman. I like the idea of the car and there are probably lots of buyers that want a couple rather than a cab and this will work for them, but the premium on the coupe--I think--is over the top.
As others have said, for about the same money you can get a lightly optioned 987S, which I think is the better value. If you start with the base price of the Cayman add the 18" wheels and sound system + back in to make the equipment comparable, there is only about a $3K difference in price between the two cars. Myself, I'd pay the extra $3K for the S. |
Hi,
This discussion went round and round before the cayman introduction and the concensus then was that the Cayman could dilute the Product Line and lend some confusion. We may be seeing that such is the case. At least the Panamera should be distinct enough to prevent this and hopefully strengthen the Brand... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
BMW may be public, but the the lions share of stock (75% or more?) is owned by the Quandt Family and has been since the end of the war. They make the decisions as to what happens at BMW.
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Sorry Jim but the experience woudl not support your supposition. Fact is, there have been more great cars built in the last 25 yrs than in the 25 before that. Most of these great cars were built by public corporations. It ain't the structure, it is the people. |
Convertible Cayman? :confused:
isn't that a Boxster? Interesting ^ about those inventories, many in the Pcar community were saying a Cayman made no sense and it was "unexplainable hype" and strictly a one off. But maybe people really think a 911 is now TOO much dinero for the power and styling are pulling the trigger on the Cayman (still very expensive for 300HP) but not as painfull as getting smoked in a 911 by a $25K cheaper ZO6! Also, $100K for a sports car use to be truly exotic car territory and only the 911 Turbo could command that 'exotic' title. Personally if I had $100K to drop on a sports car, a fully optioned standard/S Carrera would NOT be on the top of my list. Really, they're not that uncommon nowadays.. As for CaymanS, Since it came out I have seen so many articles where 'seasoned' autor journalists call the Cayman nothing more than a stepping stone to the 911 without a single mention that it is a better handling and responsive car. No mention to the mid engine layout, and no mention to the eagerness by purist enthusiast Porsche community for the Cayman. Are the journos really that stupid or is there some kind of wink wink going between Porsche and the media? |
"Are the journos really that stupid or is there some kind of wink wink going between Porsche and the media?"
How about both of the above! |
I have had all manner of 911. I think they are nice cars, overrated and overpriced.
I like the Boxtster better, although it could have more content for the base price. The snobs who believe the 911 is the only only thing are just that, snobs. PS- Give me a zo6 against 996 Turbo on ANY track in the world. If I am driving them both, the 911 is toast!!!!! |
LOL toast!
I've said before for the track if you offer me Z06 and 911 Turbo/GT3 I'll jump in that Z06 faster than you can say balsa wood underfloor! So much power! So wide a track. WOT into a right hander at 10/10ths must be a life changing experience. Now for the drive home I'll give the keys to the Z06 to the next guy. The Corvette despite its dominance in performance still has a big image problem. Its looks are still very generic. The performance does not match the design. It simply does not look like a $100K car even though it matchest $100K world class peformance and engineering like a Ferrari or Ford GT. Its the beauty queen with hairy legs while the 996 Turbo and GT3 is Giselle Bundchen. |
Actually pretty soon I'll probably have a supercharged 2001 Z06 to complement my 2002 Box S. At least for a short time, until I sell the Z06 again. Guys, realize that we keep talking about strictly performance. How often on the street will you be driving either car at 10/10ths? For that matter, how often will you be at the track?
So for every-day driving and comfort (everything besides 0-60 times), I'll take the Box or any Porsche (including the $80k - $100k prima donna) over some other American or Japanese car that, sure it goes fast, but makes me sick sitting inside of (or looking at the outside of). Since we're using the vette as an example, the American's have never figured out how to make something look and feel "exotic". Sit inside a brand new $80k+ Z06 (hell, even the Ford GT for that matter!) and you get the same clunky GM radio, crappy plastic, and flimsy non-ergonomic interior that you get in a Chevy Malibu. Or how about a Subi or some S2000 - cloth seats and bare interior, ill-thought-out layout, etc. You get my point? Sure, performance is a piece of the puzzle. But I'd much rather have overall quality and a higher standard car to drive in every day and love to be in than one that gets to the next streetlight faster than the guy next to me but I have to detail often to get rid of the smell of my own vomit. I'd be willing to pay for this overall quality, and I'm sure that's where a lot of Porsche or MB owners are coming from. The money is not spent on the bigger, better performing engine, but rather *everything else* you get for the price. |
"But I'd much rather have overall quality "
I will be laughing about this for a long long time. I have dealt 911s for some time now. I can tell you that there is nothing scarier to a dealer than a 911 out of warranty. We just want them GONE as fast as possible. Now a vette out of warranty is not scary at all. Can you guess why? Because having the 911 in inventory is like musical chairs, where the $5K repair bill is given to you after the music stops. Or, if you are really unlucky, a $12K repair bill of for the engine. Sorry, but that is a BIG part of quality. IMHO |
Granted... out of warranty cars are out of warranty cars. I was referring to new vs. new. With the exception of my 2002 Box s, every other car I've had in the last several years have had warranty on them, so if anything goes wrong it's covered. So I mentioning overall quality for a new Corvette versus a new Porsche. I'll tell you where I'd rather spend my money....
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From what I have seen in the automotive press, the Cayman IS outselling the Boxster. Probably to be expected since Cayman sales are being bumped by purchases from the "early adopters" that simply have to have the latest thing.
Perhaps the more surprising statistic is the continued very strong sales of the 911. US sales are reportedly up 31%, 1st 6 mos. of '06 vs 1st 6 mos. of '05. The 911 sales in the 1st six mos. actually exceeded combined sales of the Boxster/Cayman, 6,421 vs 6,416.* Apparently 911 buyers don't consider the car to be overpriced. Or maybe they're just wealthy enough that it doesn't matter. *reported in August '06 Porsche Panorama, the PCA monthly magazine. |
What has suffered for the Porsche dealers is USED car sales. My dealer reports used cars down 50% in last year.
Both 986 and 996 resales are hurting. |
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