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986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners (http://986forum.com/forums/index.php)
-   Boxster General Discussions (http://986forum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   718 sales poor (http://986forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65919)

Porsche9 03-30-2017 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cas951 (Post 532039)
I've had the opportunity to drive the 718 S a few times. Not just a road test but at a autocross track and at the Porsche Experience center in LA. The first was at a Porsche 718 playground event at Berkeley, Ca in Aug last year. I managed to be a passenger with a factory driver as well as drive several laps around the autocross track. I'm no aportscar writer and I do lack the ability to describe how the car handles but I can tell you that it's everything we've all read and then some. The power and torque output come to mind. The biggest disappointment is the exhaust tone. PSE or no PSE if you didn't see yourself going in to the Boxster you would have thought you were in a Subaru. This was a huge disappointment for me. In my opinion new buyers won't miss this missing link but previous owners will be disappointed. The 718's ran the tracks all day long and didn't see one break down. Seems to be very reliable.

At the Porsche Experience center one thing i noticed right away is the power of the 718 S. The 718 S actually kept up with the 911 on the straights and caught up quickly by the first turn. By the second lap he was asked to let me pass him. I tried to do the same on a 911 turbo. Well, you know the outcome on that one but I did manage to catch up to it towards several turns later.
I too have driven 718 S a couple times. I like everything about it expect the sound (there's a speaker between the seat that pipes in sound!!) and in some situations it had a bit of turbo lag which was exaggerated when the A/C was on.

onewhippedpuppy 03-30-2017 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by algiorda (Post 532040)
Didn't I read somewhere some of the new "Enthusiast" Mustangs and Camaro's pump artificial noise through the radio into the cockpit to simulate a throatier exhaust note?

Perhaps That's next on the Porsche Options list! :D
It's already there, Porsche uses a speaker on the 718 to "enhance" engine sound. Not a new concept, BMW has been doing it for years including the M cars. The Mustang uses a tube from the intake to the firewall so it's more of an amplifier than fake, I think the Camaro might use a speaker though.

I'm big on sound, and not much on fake. Probably why everything except for my wife's minivan has some variety of exhaust system. My 986S has catless headers, secondary cat bypass pipes, and a sport exhaust, and while I'm positive the 718 could run circles around it, I bet mine sounds better.

cas951 03-30-2017 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by algiorda (Post 532040)
Didn't I read somewhere some of the new "Enthusiast" Mustangs and Camaro's pump artificial noise through the radio into the cockpit to simulate a throatier exhaust note?

Perhaps That's next on the Porsche Options list! :D
I think BMW is already doing this.

Pominoz 03-30-2017 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cas951 (Post 532039)
I've had the opportunity to drive the 718 S a few times. Not just a road test but at a autocross track and at the Porsche Experience center in LA. The first was at a Porsche 718 playground event at Berkeley, Ca in Aug last year. I managed to be a passenger with a factory driver as well as drive several laps around the autocross track. I'm no aportscar writer and I do lack the ability to describe how the car handles but I can tell you that it's everything we've all read and then some. The power and torque output come to mind. The biggest disappointment is the exhaust tone. PSE or no PSE if you didn't see yourself going in to the Boxster you would have thought you were in a Subaru. This was a huge disappointment for me. In my opinion new buyers won't miss this missing link but previous owners will be disappointed. The 718's ran the tracks all day long and didn't see one break down. Seems to be very reliable.

At the Porsche Experience center one thing i noticed right away is the power of the 718 S. The 718 S actually kept up with the 911 on the straights and caught up quickly by the first turn. By the second lap he was asked to let me pass him. I tried to do the same on a 911 turbo. Well, you know the outcome on that one but I did manage to catch up to it towards several turns later.
I agree, I think previous owners are where they are suffering with the 718. Even my lowly 986 2.7 arguably has all the performance you need on the road, It's about the overall experience and grin factor, the sound a flat 6 makes is good for the soul. I'm in a Porsche club, and nobody in the club has bought a 718 yet, or intends to as far a I know. In Australia at least, I think the 718 is easily the most expensive 4 cylinder car you can buy, It's just not a premium device, engine wise. It will be interesting to see what the residuals are when people start to sell them used.

Giller 03-31-2017 04:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pominoz (Post 532103)
It's just not a premium device, engine wise.
I think many owners in that Porsche club you mention would highly disagree! Porsche has a very strong history when it comes to 4 cylinder engines.

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/technology/porsche-four-cylinder-flat-engine-history-12270.html

BIGJake111 03-31-2017 05:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pominoz (Post 532103)
I think the 718 is easily the most expensive 4 cylinder car you can buy, It's just not a premium device, engine wise. It will be interesting to see what the residuals are when people start to sell them used.

This is by far the cars biggest weakness. The 968 was a very good 4 cylinder, but no one wanted to pay that much for one. When I think 4 cylinder at most I think of my mothers Camry or of domestic economy cars, saturns and etc.

You can sell a 718 still because it is fast and stylish, but you can't expect a 4 cylinder motor to not devalue the car regardless of speed improvements.

I want one pretty bad and it makes the 981 look ugly by comparison in many aspects, (at this point I think 986 and 718 are the purest exterior designs) however I wouldn't pay a premium over a 981 gts to get a car that reminds me more of an Audi TT at most rather than a pocket Carrera gt.

Giller 03-31-2017 06:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGJake111 (Post 532125)
This is by far the cars biggest weakness. The 968 was a very good 4 cylinder, but no one wanted to pay that much for one. When I think 4 cylinder at most I think of my mothers Camry or of domestic economy cars, saturns and etc.

You can sell a 718 still because it is fast and stylish, but you can't expect a 4 cylinder motor to not devalue the car regardless of speed improvements.

I want one pretty bad and it makes the 981 look ugly by comparison in many aspects, (at this point I think 986 and 718 are the purest exterior designs) however I wouldn't pay a premium over a 981 gts to get a car that reminds me more of an Audi TT at most rather than a pocket Carrera gt.
BMW M2 - premium sport coupe - 4 cylinder engine. Mercedes AMG Cl45 - 4 cylinder engine. Alfa Romeo 4C - 4 cylinder engine. Yeah, those are some low-end, dowdy vehicles!

Seriously people, a 4-cylinder will devalue it? Yeah, just like water-cooled has devalued all those cars.....or power steering, or any number of 'silly' technological advances.

Perfectlap 03-31-2017 06:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGJake111 (Post 532031)
The flat 4 would feel much faster from what I've read.

However, I agree the spyder is the car I would want.
The depreciation curves between the 981 Spyder and the most optioned 781 S's will be night and day.

Perfectlap 03-31-2017 07:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giller (Post 532033)
So where is the sweet spot? The Model T? Cars built in the 60's? 70's?

I don't agree that cars are taking the driver out of the equation - not completely anyways. Evolution is all around us - enhancements are made and sacrifices are made, but the offset is normally for the better.
This is the sort of thing where I wish some car magazine would take an aircooled Porsche and let a factory pro drive the car and then give it to a weekend warrior. Note the spread between their lap times. Now take the latest flavor of the day water cooled Porsche and do the same test at the same track with a pro and amateur and note the spread as a % over the aircooled's spread. When the 996 first came around we saw weekend warriors coming within a second or two of the factory drivers. It would be very revealing to see how the 718 fares in that regard since the S is already as fast (if not faster) than the GT4.

BIGJake111 03-31-2017 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giller (Post 532138)
BMW M2 - premium sport coupe - 4 cylinder engine. Mercedes AMG Cl45 - 4 cylinder engine. Alfa Romeo 4C - 4 cylinder engine. Yeah, those are some low-end, dowdy vehicles!



Seriously people, a 4-cylinder will devalue it? Yeah, just like water-cooled has devalued all those cars.....or power steering, or any number of 'silly' technological advances.


How much of a sales success are these cars?

Yes the introduction of the new alpine and 4c and lotus proves small sports cars with a 4 can be great... but great sellers....?

Pominoz 03-31-2017 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giller (Post 532120)
I think many owners in that Porsche club you mention would highly disagree! Porsche has a very strong history when it comes to 4 cylinder engines.

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/technology/porsche-four-cylinder-flat-engine-history-12270.html
This is my club, I've been a member for two years and know the other Boxster/Cayman owners well. I don't know anyone who has a 718 or intends to in the future, they're keeping their 981s rather than trading in.

http://www.pcv.com.au

Giller 03-31-2017 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGJake111 (Post 532198)
How much of a sales success are these cars?

Yes the introduction of the new alpine and 4c and lotus proves small sports cars with a 4 can be great... but great sellers....?
What do you define 'success' by? These aren't Fords, they aren't going to fly off the shelf. But you weren't arguing success, you were arguing no one would take a 4 cylinder engine seriously. That is just wrong.

So far, Porsche is quite happy with the 718 sales - and expectations when the nicer weather rolls in we will see an uptick.

These are high end sports cars that appeal to a limited market. They aren't going to sell hundreds of thousands of these a year....

Giller 03-31-2017 07:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pominoz (Post 532200)
This is my club, I've been a member for two years and know the other Boxster/Cayman owners well. I don't know anyone who has a 718 or intends to in the future, they're keeping their 981s rather than trading in.

http://www.pcv.com.au
Why? Because they can't handle the extra power? They don't want to save a couple bucks in gas? They don't want to drop their insurance a bit?

Wow, this whole argument that the 4 cylinder engine is somehow going to hurt Porsche is silly. This feels like we are going back in time - you do know all Porsche's now have water cooled engines, right? Blasphemy!

BIGJake111 03-31-2017 09:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giller (Post 532233)
What do you define 'success' by? These aren't Fords, they aren't going to fly off the shelf. But you weren't arguing success, you were arguing no one would take a 4 cylinder engine seriously. That is just wrong.



So far, Porsche is quite happy with the 718 sales - and expectations when the nicer weather rolls in we will see an uptick.



These are high end sports cars that appeal to a limited market. They aren't going to sell hundreds of thousands of these a year....


I think it's a good car, I think it has a lot of merit. But let's be honest without the badge it would fail. It's worth less to most consumers, whatever improvements have been made don't outweigh the loss of the 6. It may still do well but for the same price as the last car it WILL sell less.... all else held equal of course.

Chuck W. 03-31-2017 11:35 PM
My wife just bought a BMW M2; $49,000 plus tax and license for a European Delivery. Six cylinder, 6 speed MT and artificial sound piped in. The sound piped in is no big deal. I have listened for it and can't tell it over the exhaust note. IMHO, it is a great price for what she got. Apples to oranges from a Cayman or Boxster but I believe for the price she got a better deal.

Pominoz 04-01-2017 02:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giller (Post 532236)
Why? Because they can't handle the extra power? They don't want to save a couple bucks in gas? They don't want to drop their insurance a bit?

Wow, this whole argument that the 4 cylinder engine is somehow going to hurt Porsche is silly. This feels like we are going back in time - you do know all Porsche's now have water cooled engines, right? Blasphemy!
The main reason is that it sounds rubbish compared to the 981. Not everyone cares about the sound, but a lot seem to. If the engine is the future, why not put it in the 911 as well?

This guy sums it up.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CKvMwsyhCnc

Perfectlap 04-01-2017 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGJake111 (Post 532246)
whatever improvements have been made don't outweigh the loss of the 6. It may still do well but for the same price as the last car it WILL sell less.... all else held equal of course.
I think it will be the other way. The 718 will outsell all flat 6 Boxsters. And when they dump manual transmission it will sell as if it were only a paddle shift car from the start. The people who can buy these cars new, for the most part, are buying the badge status not the badge heritage.. In other words they don't know Steve McQueen from Steve Harvey.
But on the flip side unless its a limited production engine, and this is true of any water cooled Porsche, the car's depreciation will be severe. You'll be able to get a 718 cheap sooner than it took to buy a 986/987 cheap.

rp17 04-02-2017 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by algiorda (Post 532040)
Didn't I read somewhere some of the new "Enthusiast" Mustangs and Camaro's pump artificial noise through the radio into the cockpit to simulate a throatier exhaust note?

Perhaps That's next on the Porsche Options list! :D
I thought they did that a couple years ago..

Well the 718 is a great car but it did loose that flat six sound that new buyers may not care about but stunned me after hearing it. But i find something so wrong with a 90k car with only 4 cylinders.. takes sometime getting use to i guess..

911monty 04-02-2017 01:49 PM
I think there is already a parallel to this. Anyone remember the Harley Davidson collaboration with interestingly enough Porsche developing the V Rod engine? This was a departure from the air cooled to water cooled engines and is a much superior engine. However the demographics did not change. The Baby boomers insisted on the traditional sound and quirks of the air cooled engine and would not touch the evolution. The V Rod now sells to a much younger demographic. This could be desirable to draw the younger crowd, but how many first time Porsche owners can afford an >$80k car especially one that is dinosaur powered. I suspect if they can afford that price they will buy a Tesla instead.
It will be also interesting to see what happens when the Corvette becomes mid engine next year.

Porsche9 04-04-2017 10:37 PM
North America sales YTD through March
 
It appear sales for the Boxster/Cayman are down based on recent figures. Sales through March are at 1,106 compared to 2016 at 1,494, down over 25%. Maybe there is a good reason for this? Transition to the new model?


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