First day out test driving cars. Notes & Questions.
 

Hi all thanks for stopping by.

I'm new here & to the porsche world, this past December while sitting around in subzero temps & working way to much I decided it was time to buy a roadster. I wanted 2 seats great looks & it has to be fast. Not crazy bhp, super tuned, sub 9 sec 1/4 mile or 0-60 in 4 second speed that you have to spend all your time & money keeping it running fast, but plenty quick enough to get your pulse up. Wanting to spend in the neighborhood of 10k I quickly ended up with a short list

Audi TT
BMW Z4
Honda S2000
Porsche Boxster

Spending my evenings surfing the interwebs, I came to prefer the porsche on paper & fond memories of driving my friends dads 944 turbo & 911 targa when in high school back in the mid to late 80's. I still needed to give the others a fair shake. Yesterday it rose to the upper 20's here in the NW burbs of Chicago so I found some samples of each & spent the day driving a few & seeing some amazing cars, including A Ford gt40 rows & rows of Maserati's, a couple Astin Martins some 911's & more. Anyway.

-Audi TT
First drive was an 04 Audi TT 1.8 fwd. I gotta say this car was pretty good, exhaust sound was great & they get a lot of pep out of that little engine. I think a 2.0 turbo w/awd would probably be a blast if your under 6' tall, which I am not. It also likes to understeer. For me they styling is cool for now but I can see I would tire of the modern tech look.

Next shop had both the BMW & Honda. I wasn't aware of this before yesterday but the car dealerships in the area I was in (Addison, IL) tend to be inside old commercial warehouse office buildings. The cars are buried 6-8 deep in rows, to test drive one they may have to move a dozen cars in & out of the indoor space. Here is where I sat in & gawked at the Ford GT40. That thing exudes power just sitting there, if you have half a million to spend give it a go :D

-Honda S2000
All I had to do was sit in it & I knew it was to small for me. (6'3" 190#) didn't bother to drive it.

-BMW Z4
This one was comfortable with plenty of cabin room, doesn't have the sports car feel I'm looking for, but if it drives well may be worth considering. However since it would've taken all afternoon to test drive it at this dealer I decided to wait to drive one elsewhere, I'll update later after a test drive.

ON TO THE PORSCHE

-99 Boxster base w120k (manual)
First time in & driving a Boxster, this one was showing its age & pretty ratty in & out, but the drive! & the sound, good lord the sound. definitely the experience I'm looking for. Drove great & quite well behaved when at low RPM's but get on it & its was just awesome. I'm not sure what tires were on it but I did get into oversteer several times.

-00 Boxster base w/63k (manual)
Same driving experience as the '99 except it behaved better at speed in corners & the car looks no more than 2-3 years old. dealer has no records except for carfax. One owner, previous owner bought at porsche dealer on north shore & traded in @ porsche dealer in NW burbs by me. that dealer did inspections & had on lot for only 40 days & then auctioned it off to the secondary dealer I was at. car fax has no other service entries. I need to make some calls, but I suspect that it was serviced at an independent & traded in instead of doing the 60k service. If no additional info can be found would you pass on it? Or base the decision solely on a PPI? If its listed @ $10,500 what would be a price where it would be worth the unknowns?? Here is where I could use the advice of some of you with ownership experience. Thanks.

-02 Boxster S w/64k (tiptronic)
This one was a bit ratty inside & the color was yellow (not my fave). I really wanted to like the extra power & it must be the transmission, but I preferred the base in manual. This felt no quicker at all & much less exciting or connected to the road to drive. Probably just need to find a better example with a manual trans, but unless its significantly better than this I think I'll be perfectly happy with the 2.7l.

I have a couple other 2.7l's I'd like to see & would still like to drive a manual S & the BMW Z4. One problem I'm seeing is most cars I find are at second tier used car dealers who have bought at auction with no records. I could also decide to spend another 5k or so to buy newer (condition is important to me) but I would rather not. Very frustrating, share my pain & any advice is appreciated.

Extra question for tall drivers. The Boxster at first seems a bit small tom me (6'3" 190#), I don't really notice this once driving but when getting in & making adjustments. I have to have the seat all the way back & down, then recline until the firewall presses into my lower back through the seat. I could use another inch or so of legroom. Are there any hacks or mods that you've found to improve this?

Paul

I look around to see whats out there but at the end of the day I'm a Porsche guy when it comes to sports cars. Are you? I'm looking for a Boxster too. Yes, I've noticed that a large number of cars are at dealers who almost never have maintenance records. Its unlikely I will go that route.

I adjust my seat the same way. 6'1" 215.

Drive an S and manual trans. On a track.

In the Boxster, there are ways of lowering the seats and a kit that deletes the center console allowing your right leg to splay out to the side. Note the seat position relative to your head and the rollbar.

You are looking at cars that are 15 or more years old. Great cars but parts age as well as wear.

The '00 you describe sounds like a nice car from what you say. But priced a bit more like an S (bigger engine, bigger brakes, etc). I owner a '99, totaled it. Then a '01S just because. Both great cars, very trouble free. I did the PPI with a great mechanic and knew I was going to spend $2k on a 60k plus complete brakes. Then added tires and an alignment really nothing much for around 5 years. I sold the car because of my age and changed parking situation. But I knew all those things before buying and factored them into the buying price. And so did the seller as they got the same printed report and in-person walk-through I did.

In both my Boxster purchases I bought from a private owner (neither the first/only owner, BTW) and I verified the reason for selling (kids, parking space, need for an outside salesperson's 4 door car, etc).

I have had my Boxster (99, manual, records since 17k miles, 57k when I bought it) for 1.5 years. I am the fourth owner. I looked for a solid 6 months before finding a PCA member selling one online. Keep looking they are out there.

Insist on a PPI. Without a PPI it is hard to give advice on any bottom dollar price on the 00 base. You should expect to spend up to $3k to get it to a point you are satisfied with.

I looked at and drove many others from secondary dealers and none of them were something I would spend money on. They were not well cared for.

Although, I am only slightly smaller than you, I don't have any advice on increasing legroom. Mine fits me well.


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- thanks Ill look into lowering the seat, I'd rather keep the center console but I'll have to make that decision after some time of ownership

-It is a nice car & I'm considering an offer, I'm ok spending a bit more for one that isn't showing its age & putting 2-3K into the maintenance right off as I'll consider that in negotiating my price. In your experience is a PPI enough without actually knowing whats been done previously?

First day out test driving cars. Notes & Questions.
 

I should add I have the console delete installed.

And Mike's blog was a definite read prior to buying.


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Tough question. Even with a PPI, stuff happens. All you can do is reduce the chances for the obvious and testable at the time items. A lot depends on the quality of the PPI. I spent probably 3 hours of labor costs and the guy preped P-cars for racing and his shop was filled with engines in one state of assembly or another. I had seen his 3 page PPI sheet and so I knew of the measurements he'd be doing. The guy doing the job matters ... how many times have you heard that.

I'd suggest finding the mechanic before the car. Often they can point you to a car whose history they know and whose seller motivation they can attest.

Glad it helped.

For ease of access a link.

The last part is very good info. Check with your local PCA for mechanics and go talk to them. They usually know of an owner that may be looking to sell. I would call the dealer of the '00 Base to see if they have any knowledge of the car's service history or better yet, show up in person. I was able to talk to the garage that took care of my car and they were able to assure me that it had been well taken care of. Patience is the key in your search, wait for the "right" one :cheers:

Consider a trip to Florida. Buy Ben's car for about $9k and drive it home.

2002 Porsche Boxster
http://986forum.com/forums/boxsters-sale-wanted/64432-bens-2002-boxster-sale.html

I worked on Lake Michigan (USCG) for a couple years in the early 1980s. On that water near Chicago this time of year was probably the coldest I have ever felt. If for some reason you don't buy Ben's car, you won't regret the trip to sunny Florida.

Ben has a decent reputation documented on the forum and I expect that his car will meet your expectations.

The Boxster is probably the most fun car of the list that you made but you are looking at cars that are 15 or so years old and even regular maintenance will be more expensive on it then the others. The TT does understeer as it is front heavy (I have one) but you should only consider the 225hp Quattro version or the 2004 or newer 3.2 version, the FWD you drove is only 180hp and believe me you can feel the power of the other 2 over that one. Also with a Quattro you will get an independent rear suspension and a very different behaving car that is incredibly reliable and peppy. For me it's a toss up between the 2 of which I like better. My TT has Bilstein coilovers and all the understeer dialed out and is definitely faster than the Boxster and has a much better overall quality of interior feel but I still look forward to parking it and enjoying the Boxster. For 10k you could buy both, I paid $3500 for my TT a few years ago and have about $1500 into the Boxster all told so I managed to do it for under 5k.

factory had a 10mm lower seating option. The rails have it sit 10mm lower. It doesn't sound like much but make a big difference in seat height.

Re legroom, it's not an issue for me as I am several inches shorter than you. My friend is 6'4" and all legs. He can just fit in my 986 car with the seat lowered all the way and pushed back to the stop. However, he fits comfortably in his 987 Cayman. Not sure if your budget would allow for a 987 Box, but it might be worth a test sit.


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Boxster
 

I own a 2001 2.7L. I test drove both the base and the "S" when looking for mine, and I'll be honest, I could not tell major differences in the few hp you got for the 3.2 or 3.4. A 3.6 or 3.8 may be different however.

It has been a very reliable car apart from the basic stuff. It's getting to 50k so there will be some work ahead but that's part of the experience owning these cars. The S2000 is a great car too. Too bad you don't fit. I'm 5'8" and always wanted to be your size. I guess now it's an advantage as all these cars are built for the smaller scale guy for sure.

Good luck with your search. Like others have said PPI at a reputable shop is well worth it. And the guys on this forum are fantastic! So much talent and passion here it's amazing.

Don't believe the guys who claim there's little difference between a base and a S. There's a big difference in HP and a bigger difference in torque. The S will pull strongly all the way down to 2000 RPM. In the back of the manual there are charts of the base and S HP and torque curves. Take a look at them!

Don't believe the quote below.
There is very little difference. 0-60 times tell the tale, and that little difference is only relevant with an expert driver. An "S" tiptronic lessens that difference to the point that it's completely irrelevant. Unlike some that are just stuck on the rear badge, I've driven both many times and can't tell the difference. ;)
There are far more important points to consider, like maintenance history and overall condition.

Don't believe the guy who says don't believe this guy.

He is right. Once I drove an S I was not going to buy a base. Night & day.

Yes.

Not knowing the service history shouldn't be a deal killer. The vast majority of Porsche's live lives of great care and attention. If the car is in good shape, it was also probably well serviced.

Get a good PPI. It will be the best $300 that you ever spend.

Whatever you have to tell yourself.
Next time, share the crack with the rest of the class. ;)

A PPI can only determine so much. Don't forget to look at date codes on tires on low mileage cars (ask me how I know). Having a maintenance history might save you some money doing things that were already done and help you sell when you are done with the car. As always, plan on spending at least $2k over and above what is found on the PPI plus $$ for any upgrades your are likely to do.

I'd somewhat agree with you if you were comparing a pre-facelift tip S and a facelift manual 2.7, but if you're saying you can't tell a difference between a facelift manual S and a 2.5 or 2.7 then gimme some of what you're smoking :D

You don't need crack to feel the difference.

Me thinks it's the guy in the base who keeps telling himself.......

I participate in an informal local tri-state Porsche enthusiast club that likes to get together and work on their cars and other events. I've driven many of my friends' Porsches through these events, including 3.2L 986S, 3.4L transplanted 986, 3.2L 987S, 3.4L Cayman S, 996 GT3, 997 base and 997S. In all honesty, the 3.2L 986S and 3.2 987S - I could hardly feel any difference in acceleration compared to my 2.7L 986. I definitely felt a difference in power in the 996 3.4L transplanted into the 986 and the 3.4L Cayman S, and of course the 911 models I spoke of above. If you find a really good conditioned 2.7L 986, I would not hesitate to get it. However, if you can find a 986S in similar condition for a little more, def go for that, as really all 986 (base or S) are cheap now. They weren't this cheap 15 yrs ago when I got mine, and don't regret getting my base at all. After driving all the above different models, I don't feel I'm missing all that much in terms of fun and driving excitement in my lil 2.7. ;)

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps19rnp0pf.jpg

S v. Base is an argument that will stand the test of time I'm sure. It's emotion vs. reality.

All I know is if you look at the 0 to 60 times - they are negligible. So I don't get how the S is so much faster, when in reality, it isn't. I guess the extra horsepower in the S is negated a bit by the extra weight of the S? (Bigger engine = more weight)

But you do get some extra fancy bits in the S.

Anyways, there is a bit more room in the 987 - but you are entering another price point.

Either way - the Boxster is THE roadster to get. That is the one thing we do agree on here! :-)

0-60 means little. Hanging ones hat on this is really trying to focus on one detail that this car wasn't even built for. Drop from 5-4 and stomp on it. The S has more low end torque. And it has power all the way to 7200. Bigger calipers and rotors. Suspension. 6 speed. The S easily had enough options besides HP to convince me to go S or none.

Base or S
 

This argument will go on forever just like oil and coolant. We should try to be helping this person find a car he enjoys as much as the rest of us and I think deep down we are but it is an emotional decision.

The reality is that the specs on the cars are simply not that far apart. As an engineer, I Was taught to speak with data. Always, always, always... That is why I love to read the guys like PW, Nine8Six, Road and Race, Ger and many others who back their comments with photos and data. Between the two, the 0-60 times are less than 1 second equivalent to the blink of an eye. Watch the TFL videos of a '97 base beat the 911 & 930 around the track.

In the end, find the best condition model you can and tune out this noise. Enjoy the car 'cause life is short.

I've not driven a base 986, but very nearly bought one, as I thought it was better to get a good base, than a cheap S. I eventually put in extra cash to get a decent S after a good friend (a seasoned racing driver) who had driven the base and the S told me they were night and day to drive. The price diff at their current age is so small, but you're getting a good few thousand £s more car. More torque, more power, bigger brakes, an extra gear, bigger wheels, red calipers(my favourite!) and an extra letter on the boot.
Re: extra weight, the S according to the owners manual weighs only 35kgs more than the base. About the weight of a labrador.
To those who say the 0-60mph times are insignificant, you call 0.7 seconds insignificant? That's an eternity in 0-60 times. That's the same as the diff between the 986s and the 996. Keep following that logic and you'll soon be in an MX-5.
I have no doubt the base Boxster is an absolute pleasure to drive, as they are just such superbly balanced cars, and its really about so much more than just the power, BUT I reckon you'd have to be mad to get a base 986 right now just to save a few hundred pounds or dollars. If I were buying new I would def get the base.

OTOH, it depends a lot on where and how you drive if the 6 speed is preferable to the 5-speed. Some prefer the 5 speed gear ratios.

Less power can be more fun as you can put that accelerator foot down harder longer without attracting expensive enforcement attention. I'd rate my 85HP 914 more fun in that regard than my 201HP base or my 250HP S.

Certainly the impact on the rear axle CV joint boots is worse in the 6 speed cars so have the PPI check the boots carefully.

I meant my comments as my opinion / experience in shopping, not to shame the base.

I jumped in with both feet. Not much research, no PPI. I knew I wanted a Boxster and went to L.A. to drive several. Bought same day I saw it, last day there. Car sounded and looked great, I knew it was older and I had work to do but engine / trans felt & sounded great. No stored codes on my reader. Rolled dice, did well.

Same here...
 

We are all passionate about this car. It's very hard but what we have to do is use our experiences to impassion others. To argue that one model, year or type is better than another is pointless. Base models are no less of a car than is an S model overpriced for its incremental gains. And the tip finds its own place by filling the needs of many many drivers. It's all about finding what you want with no right or wrong choice.

Go find, drive and enjoy. Time is running out.........:)

^^^ What he said ^^^^. Some good advice.

Yep, I wholeheartedly agree, very well put. Everyone has to find the "right" one for them.........and then mod it or not mod according to what is right for them. :cheers:

A base can be just as fast as an S if you use the right oil and change it every week!

Exactly. Not sure why everyone gets their knickers in a knot about Regular vs. S model.

We need a Top Gear style showdown to settle this once and for all.........not really! Both versions put smiles on the faces of their owners, and that is all that matters!


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Here you go- see the little 986 go! :) It gave the 987S RS60 a good run:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csK98bOL0vY