Weekend oil change...bummer
 

Performed an oil change this weekend and found the green bits in the filter. Last oil change was clear. No metal bits were located.

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1473436511.jpg

I have an appointment with the Porsche mechanic on Tuesday to get the diagnosis. I am a reasonably capable DIY mechanic but this has me worried.

Dave
2001S

We've seen this before:
http://986forum.com/forums/performance-technical-chat/62624-p1325-green-rubber-plastic-bits-oil-end-near.html

Hope that helps; good luck!

Again?! Third time in two month...

Thanks I did a search and saw the other thread(s). Thankfully I don't have a CEL at this time. Just thought I would share what I found and what the diagnosis is when I find out.

Hey Dsallean; Sorry to see this. Your car is an 01 I believe so it does have the solenoid that fails. I'll ask the question again since it COULD be related. Does your car by chance have the DOF IMSB? Thanks

911monty it doesn't have the DOF IMSB. I have been buying parts and tools to do the clutch, RMS and IMSB among a few other items this winter. I also have Ben006's short shifter to install.

Thanks for the reply about the DOF. Best of Luck to you.

Update:

The car is back from being diagnosed at the Porsche shop nearby. Very nice folks. Dropped the oil pan and found this and didn't proceed any further. Oddly I didn't find any metal in the filter in the last 2 oil changes but they got some in the oil pan. All the bits they found are here (one green, a few brown, a few metal):

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1473959715.jpg

Car has 98,000 miles. They recommended a replacement engine of my choosing.

Dave

Well, the green and brown bits can be argued, but the metal pieces are undeniable. Sorry to hear of this but better to know now than having it fail while you're out in a winter storm at 1am in the middle of no where.

Again, my condolences.

Here is a summary of options (excluding 3.4/3.6 swap);

Option 1: Used (eBay or equivalent) Engine. This is the cheapest route - simply replace the engine you have with another used engine and do a 60K service to get the car back on the road. Future reliability is unknown and you may be right back where you are now (needing an engine replacement) in anywhere from 10K-100K miles. Obviously 10K miles would be a bummer and 100K miles would be awesome - but no one can say for sure which it will be. $4K-$7K.

Option 2: Refreshed Engine. Some shops call them "refreshed" or even "certified pre-owned" and some sellers will even call them "rebuilt" even though they are not really rebuilt. This option will generally consist of a used engine that has good compression as-is with maybe new timing chain/guides, a new water pump and/or alternator, new thermostat, and a 60K service. Be sure to check which exact parts are new/replaced because it varies. Again, you may be right back where you are now in anywhere from 10K-100K miles. $4K-$10K with higher priced engines having fewer original miles and/or add'l components replaced and/or coming from better known shops.

Option 3: Rebuilt/Remanufactured Engine. A remanufactured engine where the engine is rebuilt to meet the original spec's, mostly using OEM parts. This is a classic rebuilt engine. Some engines may have updates like IMS/RMS but you'll need to specifically check. This option should give you ~100K miles of service but the reliability is (again) completely dependent on the engine builder and the extent and quality of the updates installed to address reliability issues. Likely to have a warranty of some kind so be sure to check the warranty details. $8K-$12K. Higher priced engines have more high quality parts/updates and/or come from better known shops.

Option 4: High End Fully Rebuilt. The engine is rebuilt from the ground up with lots of new parts and all upgrades. Buyer may be able to specify some build details as desired. Engine is probably better than anything coming straight out of the factory brand new. Shops that do this work are top-end and their business relies on a good reputation. Should expect ~100K+ miles but check the warranty details. $12K-$20K. This will give you the most peace of mind (and maybe the highest performance) but it comes at a (high) price. Be aware that you may not get 100% of the engine cost back in resale value but that really depends on the buyer.

In summary, only you can decide which path is right for you and depends on how long you expect to keep the car, how much you love the car, how much money you are willing to spend, etc, etc.

Those pieces of metal don't look ferrous in the image. They look like shaved aluminum. Did they check with a magnet?

Option 5: Get out the tools.

Option 6: throw in a used engine. Rebuilt the old one yourself while you don't know how long the used one will life. If the used one dies you have a good one to replace and the experience to rebuild the used one better. ;)

Regards, Markus

I looked all over my office for a magnet before I posted the image above and couldn't locate one. I was going to check when I get home. I have known about the results for 2 days but just got the pieces from the oil pan today.

thstone: Thanks. And I appreciate you outlining the available options. I must say it is disheartening to have this happen. When I got the car, no metal in the filter. No real issues to speak of. I knew that a clutch job was in the near future so I have been getting together the tools/parts to do the clutch, RMS, IMSB and a few other items myself after the fall driving weather in south TX, which can be very nice. As I have said...bummer.

After moping around for 24 hours I decided that I am not selling it as a roller or anything of the sort. The joy per $ quotient of this particular car is better than any other sports car I have owned. And Markus, your option 6 has been what has been rolling around my skull since I found out. My biggest concern is buying a used engine. Woody may have something, I don't know yet and he is not too far from me. But if he doesn't and I need to get one on eBay then how can I know that one I am getting isn't another hand grenade before I put it in? Maybe I just take my chances. Ideally I would prefer to not have to return ship an engine. I have shipped engines before and it is a pain.

Dave

Sorry to say I don't have any 3.2, 3.4 or 3.6 and I don't foresee getting any soon either. While he's my biggest competitor for buying vehicles, I do have to give him credit for mostly buying good vehicles and might have something you can trust. You might look at Qualityporscheparts on ebay and see if he has anything. I'd be careful with anyone else though.

You don't.

I can't wait until we finally dispense with the "it's only 1% (or 10%)" theory. Every week, on every forum associated with the M96 there are new posters with metal in the oil.

There is a reason used motors have one price and totally rebuilt with "improved" parts and then tested engines have a completely different price. The gap can be $25k!!!

There is no sure thing especially with a used engine, you are relying on a few tests, the reputation of the seller, and any forum info on the seller that you can get. There are people who sell failed engines, even ones that put new IMSs into failed engines and then sell the engines or cars as if they are cured. People lie and cheat, sadly.

OTOH, the engine from my crashed '99 would have been a perfect donor engine. But how to know?

Questions I'd ask:
Why was the engine available? Crash, flood, swap?
Was it running when removed from the donor car?
Have you pulled and inspected both the filter and sump and what were the results?
Have you done a compression test and/or a leakdown test? Results?
Have you inspected the IMS area and is there any sign the IMS is not the one the car came with?
Have you made any changes/improvements to the engine? What?
What accessories are original to the engine and still attached?
Cost delivered to my door?
Warranty?

You can buy any engine and have a failure a week later, a year later or never.

I checked with a magnet last night and none of the pieces stuck to the magnet.

Thanks Woody. I suppose it's not my lucky week :D

There is a guy on CL parting out a 2002 in Sugar Land, including the engine. I sent a message and haven't heard back.

http://houston.craigslist.org/pts/5749101946.html

I guess I drew the short straw on this one.

mikefocke thanks so much for the insight. Good questions to ask. While I would ideally prefer some guarantee that whatever engine I end up spending thousands of dollars to buy is in perfect shape in the end I must do my due diligence and remember its my responsibility to do so. Buyer beware as they say.

Getting the shop ready to pull in the Box for whatever surgery is required.

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1474034254.jpg

I think the car gods are mocking me. This morning as I drove to work in my Toyota I saw two silver 986's. One screaming past in the other direction. Ugh.

I want to follow up as I ran the analysis software on Sunday. Warmed up the engine with a 30 minute top down drive around in lovely fall weather. I haven't driven it otherwise. The results were:

Camshaft deviation position 1: -6.96
Camshaft deviation position 2: -3.71

Still no codes...yet.

The engine is coming out soon. I have looked at a few replacement options and have been tempted with a 3.4 (as with every sports car I have owned I fight the urge to go bigger in some way). But I can't pull the trigger until I drop this engine and do a post mortem first. I know I should have another engine on the way while I drop the first to minimize downtime but I am going to wait. Just my curiosity and learning curve on these cars.

Dave

dude - the metal is not magnetic so probably not an issue. brown plastic is variocam tensioner pads (probably the reason that you have high deviation) - updated part is $20 and can be done with engine in car - but doesn't really need changing until deviation gets to +/- 9 or so. i say drive the car man and stop worrying about it.

TRK I appreciate that. The shop said the IMSB was going and the engine is toast. I am skeptical, however I need to change the clutch so I am going to check it out while I am in there. I would prefer NOT to drop the engine. My understanding is that the variocam tensioner might be going and it can be done with the engine in the car it is easier to perform with the engine out.

I will take your advice and drive it while the weather is so nice here:)

Personally? Change the oil filter for a spin on one, so ALL of the oil has to go through the filter. You can get a spin on adapter for not much money. Put a magnet in the sump (or get a magnetic sump plug), change the variocam tensioner parts and just drive it.

People are all too quick to say "ohh it's IMS that", so obviously the shop will tell you that. I'd just do the above and enjoy the car.

If gearbox and exhaust system is out of the car the engine is hanging on the front motor mount and on the transversal mount you put on the top it's no problem to move engine a little bit from one side to the other and fix it there. Also you can lower the engine a little bit with the transversal mount. But make shure you do not hurt the front mount or any lines or electric cables. And put the car on leveled ground and on leveled jack stand while doing that. I would not recommend to let the engine only hang pn the transversal mout from the top, because that might be too much weight for the chassis structure. So you should also support it a little bit from ground if you push the engine aside to get enough clearance to remove the valve covers.

Regards, Markus

Thanks for the advice guys. You are much more knowledgeable than me on these cars. I do have a transverse engine support bar in the shop I can use. I will drive while the weather is nice, order some parts for the clutch and tensioners and a spin on adapter and when the parts come in do some work.

This is a very helpful forum. I have been on some other sites over the years with different cars and they all seem to have a sort of personality...and some personalities�� Encouraging folks here on this forum.

Dave

Yes.....yet it isn't always the IMS is it? In this case, metal isn't ferrous therefore not IMS....

IMS is still only a small small percentage.

I don't trust any shop. Lol. How do you know if they didn't drop those particles in the engine pan? :) Did you see them pull that crap out? I don't think the green stuff is bad. I say drive it until it implodes, and then worry about a replacement engine.

Except you have to consider where the non-ferrous metal is coming from. Like main bearings for instance.

These pictures were my main bearings. They were TOAST
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/...psc49bff88.jpg

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5dac5faa.jpg

Rod bearings too:
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4cd2664a.jpg
The shiny patch is where all the non-ferrous stuff rubbed off.

This heavy wear was the result of a very early stage dual row IMS failure pumping debris through my engine.
Thankfully I didn't just change the oil and drive the F out of it like seems to be the common advice.

Non ferrous is not coming from the IMSB. So, the sky is not falling, or, you may not have enough information to determine if it is falling. But, you have something going on.

Agree with getting a spin on non-bypass type filter and filter mag. Anything circulating gets caught on the first pass. Debris can't do any more damage once captured and you can analyze it better.

I had a failing IMSB in mine. Fixed that and installed a spin on filter and mag. I changed the filter and oil after 500 miles. Then changed the filter after 1000 miles, 3000 miles and 5000 miles when I changed the oil again. I now have 10,000 miles on it. Changing the filter this weekend just to see what might be there.

BTW, the filter is $4.50 and you need half a quart of oil to change the filter between oil changes. Also, I did some investigation into the best type of filter. Good old paper has finer media and will allow less through. The filter mag is to capture any ferrous flour that would pass through a filter. Extended life filters have more porous media but can hold more garbage. So, go with paper and change them more often!

Also, find a new shop! They are either incompetent or they like to sell new engines to people who may not need them.