MNBoxster wrote:

"The problem with challenging someone's Political Correctness for using a Stereotype is that you have to actually acknowledge that Stereotype to do it."

Wrong. He simply said you shouldn't apply a stereotype to NASCAR fans just because you don't like NASCAR. He then went on to tell you how he thought your stereotype was incorrect. No acknowledgement was there, and there was no accusation of being politically incorrect.


and wrote: "Stereotypes do not apply Universally, they just apply in General..."

Again, wrong. Stereotypes, when used, don't necessarily have to apply at all. I could say "All P-car owners have wives/girlfriends named Buffy, and hang out at the yacht club wearing a sweater tied around their shoulders". Does that now apply to P-car owners in general, as you said? Of course not... some hang out at the golf course and wear plaid pants! :rolleyes:

and wrote: "What's that saying about People in Glass Houses...?? ;)"

And what's that one about being silent and being considered an idiot, or speaking up and removing all doubt? ;)

Cheers!

Jack <- no big fan of NASCAR

Ref: "Do you think NASCAR would be as popular if wrecks never happened?"

Absolutely not.
The wrecks are the only way the average fan has of knowing that those guys are really trying instead of just driving around in a circle for 3 hours and collecting a big paycheck at the end.
That's the big problem with F1 nowadays: not enough wrecks.

So why aren't the ratings off the chart for WRC? These guys roll down cliffs and hit trees.

@JackG,

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, as are we all... I simply don't agree with you...

I take my Hits, but give as good as I get... looks like this time I'm on the receiving end... That's OK... Peace...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

one more thing, watching Nascar to me is probably allot like watching F1. We don't understand why we watch it because frankly both are very dull. But we still watch one of the two religiously, or we don't watch it all.

I was a huge fan of the CART series in the mid 90's up until Penske packed his bags and went for the big money at the IRL. CART was low tech but it didn't allow the drivers to hide behind endles driver's aids and gizmos to hide their mistakes. CART had fantastic variety of oval, road and street circuits with real overtakings (not just boring pit stop lead changes) and the talent of drivers was very good with at least 12 driver in the formula in the series on merit alone. One season saw 10 differnt winners in a single season. NOw that's something to look forward to.

But the CART formula was mis managed, mismarketed and not enough home grown talent was developed. Now its just a spectacle of pay drivers who have lowered the bar considerably. And you can't even see it on most cable TV networks.

So we have NASCAR and F1.... ZZZZZZZ

Ref. "So why aren't the ratings off the chart for WRC? These guys roll down cliffs and hit trees."

Maybe because car brands like Citroen and Peugeot are a joke in the US and can not possibly be considered able to produce anything but the endless string of hopeless loser cars imported here during the '60s and '70s.

The demise of CART is of course traceable directly to a power struggle between Tony George and the CART team owners. Tony held the ace-in-the-hole in the form of the Indianapolis Speedway and the Indy 500. The one thing the CART guys could never overcome was the importance of the 500 to sponsors and advertisers. When they were in effect shut out of the 500, it initiated a slow desertion of teams to the IRL.
The CART/IRL war seems to be about over, with the IRL and Indianapolis the ultimate victor, although the 500 was almost destroyed in the process.
CART certainly was mismanaged and that played a big part in their problems, but I think the bottom line was the Indy 500. It was the only race the public gave a damn about, so it ultimately was the one race the car owners HAD to be able to run.

Agreed! I was a fan of F1 years ago during the Senna and Prost days, but soon fell out with it. Same for NASCAR, it was fun back in the old days when they really (sort of) "Raced on Sunday, Sold on Monday", but no more. I now glance at the results on Monday and watch a half of a race a year.

I did do 18 laps at Lowe's Motor Speedway about 4 years ago in the the Richard Petty Experience. It was a blast! After I drove my laps, I did the 3 lap ride-along to see what a 170+mph lap feels like. A big difference from my 140+ laps. Those guys doing it on Sunday, two and three wide, nose to tail, at 200mph do have both talent and guts, whether you like that kind of racing or not. :cool:

Ah well... back to Boxsters!

Jack

I'm not sure how you can get that IRL is/has won the war.. ratings for every IRL race except the 500 are a joke, they had two engine manufacturers bail on them, and they probably won't even get 33 cars in the field for Indy this year. Many predict that some of the big name teams will jump back to Champ Car in '07 when the new package is introduced.

I've seen both shows and for my money it's Champ Car. Put it this way - I'm no big fan of NASCAR yet I watch more NASCAR than IRL over the course of a season.

This is interesting in a perverse sorta way
 

I wasn't knocking NASCAR or the skills required. It just amazes me that it is so popular!! Man, its bigger than hockey. Hockey, bowling, golf all require skill but they don't garner the fan base NASCAR does. Its not just motorheads. Housewives and their families turn out to make a day of it and cheer for their favorite drivers. Why do all the laundry detergent companies pay for logo placement on their cars. So maybe I get watching it live, but TV coverage? I think you lose something there on TV. A sense of speed and visceral danger. Yet, its big.

Hey, I love hockey. Played it for close to 40 years. It takes skill and split second playmaking. But I don't enjoy watching it on TV. You just have to be there. It doesn't telecast well.

Maybe NASCAR is the "Peoples Race". For the masses. In production lookalike cars American's identify with it and can pretend that they could get out there and bump draft with the best. LOL

Yep the INdy 500 is make or break for open wheel racing in America.
Americans don't care for it to begin with. Without the big race its an uphill fight.
But the Indy 500 left CART in 1996 and the years that followed were some of the best for CART. They had full participation from every major engine company and they had by far the more talented drivers and better and more professional organized races. THe one IRL race I attended in 1999 was the worst I've ever seen.

Tony George needed the CART teams at the 500 more than the CART teams needed Tony George and his big race. With the help of Budweiser, George offered Chip Ganassi and Juan Montoya from CART the largest purse in the history of Indy racing to come over for a one off appearance. The result was that Montoya destroyed the IRL regulars and made off with nearly $10 Million. This was the straw that broke the camels back because Roger Penske couldn't believe he wasn't getting a dime of that Ganassi purse.
But CART really did implode more than they got beat because of the 500. There could have been a deal for the CART teams to participate in the race without all of the teams ditching CART altogether. BUt this Heitzler guy who was put in charge of CART started making enemies fast and the engine builders/Penske told CART to beat it.
So you could blame it all on Juan Montoya. He was just too fast to haul off with all that cash.

I've yet to enter into a discussion about this where folks don't have strong feelings running either way. I've never felt bad about watching NASCAR, CART, F-1, IMSA, SCORE, etc. I'm a motorsports junkie, that's all there is to it. I leave the legitimacy and political correctness up to someone else. Racing is racing is racing. I love 'em all! I don't watch them, read about them, attend them to impress anyone or make friends. THose who called to come over Sunday to watch the 500 at my home were of like minds. We were entertained.

On a side note. NASCAR was going nowhere fast till in car cameras became viable. Without that, none of the other forms of racing would enjoy the extended fan base they do. It engineered a participation of experience that was unheard of and distinctly lacking up until then. I watched many races before in car....we are now on the edge of a proliferation of information available at races today. What a difference it has made.

what kind of wheels are on your 987? Factory. Look great.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../Boxster16.jpg
They are SSR GT10's from Tirerack

Ref. CART/IRL
There could have been many deals over the years, but Tony G. was unwilling to cede any power or influence to the car owners, so nothing got done. He sat on his hole card (the Speedway) and used it to bankroll the IRL. Pathetic as it is, I don't see how you can deny that IRL has sucked most of the good teams and drivers, with the big sponsorship, out of CART. The only well-known driver they had left was Paul Tracey, and damned if he didn't show up in Daytona trying out a NASCAR stocker.
Over the years we have seen virtually every one of the supposed objectives for the 500 and the IRL turned on their head. It's no longer ovals-only, no longer a haven for American drivers, no longer any cheaper to run than CART, no longer the series for the "little guy" owners and teams. George's plan was a power grab and a business decision, plain and simple, in spite of all the flag-waving and pious posturing about returning the 500 to it's roots.

To a lot of folks I'm sure all the political maneuvering is a bore, but from another angle it's more interesting than most of the races they run.

YAWWWNNNN....I'm sorry, was somebody talking about something? When I want to take a afternoon nap, NASCAR and Golf do the trick. Too bad I couldn't watch them at the same time...instant REM sleep baby.

^^ Probably a diehard curling fan, huh?

I think we all should focus on ALMS instead of NASCAR. People who drive Mustangs,Camaros and Corvettes should watch Nascar. People who drive fully balanced cars watch ALMS. Too bad ALMS isnt stopping by the local Infineon Raceway this year,maybe I will head to Laguna Seca.

Actually, the Corvette has dominated the ALMS series from the get, dominating Saleens, Maseratis, Vipers and Aston Martins and anything else they throw at them. These cars among the fastest and finest handling cars in the world.

To my knowledge, they do NOT run NASCAR.
:cheers:

True, but a Corvette was used as a pace car for last week's Daytona 500. It joins such lofty company as Mustangs, Camaros, and Trans Ams.

Kidding!!! :)

Jack

Those Vettes are about as close to street cars as the NASCAR Monte Carlo is to its street counterpart. They're tube frame racers with larger displacement motors.

I love ALMS and applaud their fan-friendly attitude, but all is not well there either. The prototype division is fractured in that the Audis had dominated P1, while from this year on you won't have a prayer in P2 if you don't have a Porsche RS Spyder. In GT1 the Corvettes are totally dominant, mostly because nobody is campaigning the Ferrari or Aston Martin cars in the US (I understand Aston will be here this season though). GT2 has been a 911 dominated category forever.

I hope and pray they will consolidate the classes, leaving only one prototype class and a stock-based GT class before the series begins to fall apart due to lack of participation.