Leaving out the maintenance concerns, if I look at it from a purely functional point of view I can see how the PDK could be easy to live with. I've got some stick time in a Panamara PDK and after getting used to it, I can say it's better at shifting then I am, but not by a big enough margin to matter to me. I truly enjoy properly managing 3 pedals wit 2 feet simultaneously. I like the short, crisp "snick" of my SSK'd 986S. If you don't know how to heal and toe, a PDK will open up a "wholenuther" world of performance to your driving. If you do know how to properly heal and toe, you'll likely admire how we'll it changes gears, but soon miss the satisfaction that comes from those rare moments with a manual tranny when you get everything just right... brake, clutch, neutral, blip, downshift, throttle, all while near threshold braking into the apex. It doesn't workout that way often (for me), but when it does, you realize that no "Flappy paddle" (hat tip to Clarkeson) gear box will ever make you feel that way.

Also, I'm inclined to believe I'd like PDK more if they'd give it a traditional "H" pattern to move the shifter through... I hate the +/- stick on manumatics.

No offense taken. :D

But what can really happen with gum? This :barf: ? Lol. But I have kids, so I know that's an actual possibility. :D

It brings to mind the time hubby ate a McD's caesar salad in the car. They forgot to give him a fork, so he used two straws as chopsticks (a bit bendy, those). While driving. :eek:

He didn't drop a bit, but, no, it wasn't in my car.

Then...no
Now...yes!

Bo

I simply have to chime in here. After 6 years of driving, autocrossing, and racing a 986S with a 6 speed manual, my daily driver is now a PDK C4S.
So I am probably one of the few (or maybe the only) posters who have actually extensive seat time in a PDK car. And I can tell you: PDK is the best of both worlds. Normally I leave the PDK in manual mode and shift using the paddler shifters. However, when I am stuck in stop and go traffic I simply switch to automatic mode and don't have to worry about the clutch. And in manual mode it's just as engaging as if you have a stick and a clutch. It's the best of both worlds - seriously.
Track season starts end of March and I will do one session in manual only, one session in in Sport Plus mode in fully automatic and one session in Sports mode, with me doing the shifting when necessary. I am pretty sure that if there's any difference it will be to the PDK's advantage. The argument that you are no longer in control with a PDK makes as much sense as not being in control without torsion bars or carburetors or drum brakes.
Guys and Gals, drive a PDK car, move the shift lever to the left (in manual) and then shift (hopefully with paddles, as the standard Porsche "Rubik's cube logic" buttons suck big time) and then please don't tell me that you felt you were not in control all the time....

Chris - you make good points. I have driven a few PDK cars as well, and I came to the conclusion in every case that yes it is faster, and more capable. At times I am sure it is more fun too, since you can focus on other aspects of driving.

But, and it's an interesting note: As a more recent manual driver, even I am having so much fun just physically moving the gear shifter around, learning heel-toe, learning to properly downshift, etc.

I have a BMW with paddle shifters as well - 335i. It's definitely fun at times, but the manual gives you that physical interaction that honestly the PDK cannot replace. So I see why people still like manuals. There is a reward element in doing a nice downshift and shifting smoothly.

Aside from that, PDK is definitely superior technically.

Honestly a manual works great in my base Boxster and in the newer Porsche base cars I have driven. When I do eventually go to PDK, I think for me it needs 2 things to keep it exciting: An "S" version of the car, and the sports chrono pack so you can get the faster shifts in sport plus mode. That way it gives you a new level of speed and excitement.

Otherwise, the manual really makes great and fun cars out of even the most seemingly underpowered Porsches.

Sorry, but PDK is not the best of both worlds. Because it's not a manual at all and it doesn't give you the pleasures and involvement of a manual. It's a completely different technology and experience.

All you do is press a button. If you enjoy the process of controlling the clutch and rev matching the shifts, tough. Because the computer does it all for you.

I've spent plenty of time with PDK Porsches. Have driven probably five or six different models including a week with a PDK Cayman, so more than just 15 minute test drives.

But frankly, you don't need to drive one to know it's not the best of both worlds.

PDK is very good, but it's silly to pretend it's the best of both worlds. It doesn't offer the control and involvement of a manual gearbox. It's that simple.

PDK is something very different from a manual. If you like it, great. But to characterise it as the best of both worlds will give people who haven't tried it completely the wrong idea. It's not a manual gearbox at all.

Here is one of those "OLD School guys" again. Love the dance, love the shifting. I grade myself on every up shift and down shift I make. Smoothness, correct revs, all that goes into it. Definietly forces me to be completly involved with the driving experince. I know the new auto-clutch transmissions are going to be faster and quicker. Maybe they should put in a Placebo Clutch pedal to make us "Old Timers" feel more at home

+1 Everything Pothole said was right on the money.

Have to agree. I would love PDK on my next Cayenne or Turbo Carrera (as long as the warranty is lifetime) but on a roadster? No way.
I'd have to do a truck load of daily driving to even consider getting rid of the lever.

As for peformance, sure the machine will be be quicker than the man, so why not just go fully automatic like some guys in F1 who don't even bother to shift any of their gears? That's where things are headed. But I see lots of guys looking for the PDK to put them closer to FTD bragging rights and that coveted $5 trophy at the next autocross or DE Cup. Laptimes go up, driver talent down.

+1 on that

While I agree with much of what you've said, I take issue with the bolder statement. PDK is in fact a manual gear box with automated clutch and throttle inputs. It in fact has clutch and friction plates (2 sets). It is very fun to drive and is fast and more precise than almost any driver could be. I still find the manual tranny to be more gratifying. It's like putting a plane on auto pilot, it will hold a course more precisely and fly an ILS with no deviation, but it does not compare to the feeling one gets from hand flying well which one will lose the skill to do if always using technology to help.

I imagine people said the same thing about synchromesh when it first was introduced. Certainly there are not many folks that have a clue about double clutching anymore and on some level someone who drives a crash box well has superior skill too someone who can't.

This......

Sorry, chap, PDK is NOT a manual gearbox. Period. It's automatic.

What's it's not is a torque converter automatic. It's an automatic with two clutches etc. It changes gears automatically. It does not allow for manual changes. It's an automatic.

Moreover I don't care if it's faster and more precise than a human driver. That's an argument for having the car do everything as you just sit there as a passenger. It's an argument for the ultimate driver's car being one where you actually do no driving at all. And thus it's a non argument!

The synchro thing is a complete red herring too and one that people often bring up in a futile attempt to justify PDK. Synchro is just a more refined mechanism. It's doesn't take control and involvement away from the driver and hand it over to a computer and servos.

Porsche just announced the new GT3 models and they only come with PDK :-)

Just saying....

See, I feel just the opposite -- I'd have to be doing a lot more track work than I do anymore to consider moving to a PDK. Traffic is the very thing that would keep me in a manual Porsche forever. Why? Because there is NOTHING ELSE TO DO when you are stuck in traffic. Getting to slip the clutch and ease forward repeatedly is the only "skill" you're getting to enjoy/exercise/display that day. If traffic is light or nonexistent, or you're on a track, you can enjoy so many other aspects of driving that it might just make up for the loss of the clutch pedal.

:cheers:

What? Not sure if you understand how a PDK works, but it most certainly does allow for manual changes. You move a stick and the gear changes. Only when you move the stick. Not before, not after, and not without you moving the stick. That is a manual (Latin: manualis: "of or belonging to the hand") action, not an automatic one.

Now I am no apologist for the PDK and I absolutely prefer the 6-speed, but the PDK does, in fact, "allow for manual changes." It also has an automatic mode that allows you to make no manual changes.

From reading various posts I'm not sure a lot of people understand this.

Yeah, I think it's you who doesn't understand how PDK works.

You do realise that when you move that "stick" all you are doing is sending a signal to a computer. Nothing you manually manipulate is of any consequence. You may as well be pressing a small button.

In a manual gearbox, it's the movement of your hand directly connected to mechanisms that deselects one gear and selects another. Same for the clutch, albeit the physical connection is hydraulic.

There is nothing manual about PDK. You press a button, a signal is sent to a computer, it decides what to do. And then it does it.

PDK does not allow for manual changes. It does the changes.

Get it, now?

I've gotten it from the get go. I see your point, but you've missed mine. What I get now is that this is a semantic argument. It's no matter, we can agree that we both prefer to operate the right pedal ourselves...

What did I miss?

It only "decides what to do" in so much that it decides precisely how much to blip the throttle. It does not over ride the driver unless the driver does something stupid like try to make a downshift that would exceed redline. It is quite possible to be ham fisted with PDK and smack into the rev limiter.

The automatic on my lexus has a manual linkage to the tranny via the shifter. If I manually select first there is a physical linkage between the selector and the tranny. By your logic, is my GS 400 a manual? If so, you should let Lexus know, because they never offered the car with a manual transmission...

I take that the air shifters utilized on racing machines are automatics in your mind?

PDK has all of the components (with some extras) of a traditional manual transmission except for the interface, which is automated...

And thus it's an automatic.

The "manual" refers to the mode of operation or the "interface" as you put it. Not the design of the components.

Do not think I missed anything.

My heel-toe is reasonably good but I would gladly choose a PDK. Probably on my next car.

So there are no automatics with manual interfaces?

My forehead hurts... You win! Well done.:cheers:

To be honest, not sure what happens with an old school torque converter when you use the selector change gear.

But re PDK, the answer is simple. There are no manual changes of gears, no manual interface. At most you send a signal to a computer and the computer decides what to do and when.

It's reasonable enough to call it "manual" mode when your pressing buttons to request gear changes from the computer, just for the sake of semantic simplicity. But there's nothing actually manual about the process of changing gears.

What I don't get is why people are so desperate to claim that there's a manual element to PDK.

The reason is because it has absolutely revolutionized what the average human can do in an automobile and has eliminated all of the draw backs of the traditional automatic. Your fathers slush box it ain't. FYI: there are many manual gear boxes that put a an automated interface between the driver and tranny to select gears, just as there are many automatics that do not...

I totally get that dual clutch is a revolutionary tech. What's that got to do with trying to call it "manual"?

In fact, it's because it's so revolutionary that it makes so little sense to call it manual. it's not remotely manual. It's completely computer controlled.

And no, there are zero manual gearboxes that put an automated interface inbetween the driver and tranny. Those boxes are automatic. They're just not torque converter.

The hint is in the word "manual". If servos and a computer are doing the gear changing, it's not manual.

What you're trying to talk about, at least in a modern context, is a synchromesh gearbox which can have both manual and automatic interfaces.

@Topless; LOL!

But . . .

I really think everyone is underestimating the "Stomp And Go" fun that is the PDK . . .

See you in Buttonwillow :cheers:

It's enough to say that the PDK is a revolutionary technology that eliminates most of the flaws with older automatic trans (significant torque losses, slow transitions, finding yourself in the wrong gear, sloppy downshifts etc). If you like it (and I do), buy one. If you don't, buy a stick. But don't knock it until you have tried it.

Chris, I plan to be there and I want a little right-seat time in your new ride. :cheers:

As much right side time as you want my friend...
Looking forward to it

I get it now no more or less than I did before. Whether the control action is initiated by moving a stick that is attached to a gear box, moving a stick that is attached to electronics that are attached to a gear box, or pushing a button that is attached to a gearbox, the point of "manual control" is this: when you tell the gearbox to do something, it does it, when I say, how I say. If the computer would rather be in 4th and I'd like to be in 6th, I win. It does what I say, immediately. That's manual control. Both by the linguistics definition of the word (as I pointed out so elequently above) and by the notional definition long affixed by automotive junkies such as your- and myself. This is why even though you could "control" a Tiptronic with buttons or a stick, it wasn't a manual -- it took your "suggestion" and eventually got around to going to that gear as long as it didn't really think you shouldn't be there.

I can put my house thermostat on automatic and let it do what it needs to, or I can switch it to manual and take control of the temperature -- all with the same set of buttons talking to the same logic board. I don't have to go down to the furnace room and shovel coal for it to be manual control of the temperature in my house.

And on the opposite side of the spectrum, I have a 68 Cadillac convertible with an automatic TH 400 transmission. There is not the first sign of a logic board or even of a wire going into that transmission. Nothing between me and the transmission that's not mechanical. I can shift it manually with a stick that comes out of the steering wheel -- no buttons. But this does not a manual transmission make. It is an automatic NOT because it has an electronic interface between me and it, but because it doesn't shift with precision, delivering the gear I order up immediately upon my ordering it.

Cheers!

Except for the gearbox doesn't change gear "when and how you say" with PDK. You've no control at all over the selection of the gears or the actuation of the clutch. The computer controls everything.

You have no control over how the different parts of the process are orchestrated, how smooth or jerky the change is or anything else. It's no more manual than pressing a button to turn the car on after which it does everything itself.

You have the illusion of manual control because the computer usually agrees that it's OK to change gear when you press the button. But try changing down at 7,000rpm and you'll find out exactly how manual PDK is. Yes, that's a safety feature to protect the engine. But it illustrates that it's the computer that makes the final call over whether to change gear at all, let alone how the gear change is executed.

PDK is an automatic gearbox. Why are people so scared to accept that? It's miles better than a manual in many regards. Why not embrace that?

Yes, yes, you are right. My fear is behind me. I embrace the truth.

Owned 1 stick and 2 TIP transmission mid-engine P-cars. Depending on what traffic was like in my area at the time. 500k in the area, stick. 1,500k, auto. PDK is improved from the TIP so sure I would. Not right for everyone. Your choice has to be right for you. I do note that PDK is expensive, adds value at sale time now, and most cars are now ordered with PDK.

did you own a manual sports car before going with the PDK?

That can influence your perspective a bit. It's easier not to miss something that you didn't have to lose in the first place.

very interesting. I guess it makes sense to me looking back now at the first PDK's which had a very distinct "lag". It was addressed in the S models for some cars where I believe drivers, Cayman S specifically, reported that the gear change was much prompter. I guess you could say that lag highlighted the dynamic, as you point out, of the driver "requesting" the shift, the computer mulling it over, and then obliging the human a delayed shift. Wholly unacceptable in a sports car imho. Since then, PDK apparently has been refined to the point where you've been duped into believing that you are actually shifting the gear because the computer is much better at creating that "virtual reality" of sorts. Purely mechanical vs. automated.
Thanks for illustrating this big change in driving that few have really fully considered.

Oh, ye of little faith . . .

I drove a manual Celica for six years. I loved that car.

BUT there is a big difference between a manual Toyota and a manual Porsche. You guys might not realize it, but the Porsche clutch is a monster. :troll:

It is really hard to depress, if you don't have muscular legs. It can be very fatiguing for a woman. I've had this conversation with a friend of mine (who bought herself a new 911), and she opted for the PDK. She test drove a manual, and after about an hour, her knee ached. I've driven hubby's manual 911, and it's just a bit difficult after a while. Which drains the enjoyment right out of it.

I've also had the PDK versus manual conversation with hubby, and he wouldn't give up a manual if you paid him. I think it's just a personal preference thing.

I said it once, and I'll say it again; when hubby and I race, he's over there shifting like mad, while I'm putting on lipstick. :D He only beats me by less than half a car, even with all the extra HP. Oh, and mine doesn't "lag".

If they made a car with 3 pedals for fully manual operation, in addition to an "auto" mode, where the computer controls a traditional clutch, I'd be in heaven. Stop & Go traffic, or feeling lazy, just stick it in auto.

When I'm in the market again I'll try a PDK, but I don't think it will sway me from a 3-pedal car. As mentioned, executing a perfect heel-toe downshift is just heaven to me!