Porsche 1 hour Crashed Unsure Why Can you help?
 

Hi

I had a Porsche Boxster 99 reg for a couple of days, yes a couple of days, I will explain in the best detail possible. I was driving, not at a significant speed as it was Bank Holiday and I was going into a seaside town so traffic was busy not heavy but moving about 40mph, the road conditions, well it was slightly wet but was not raining at the time , I was going completely round a roundabout to go back on myself (as I had missed the turn off), I accelerated as I was coming off the roundabout when suddenly the rear end shot out, I tried to correct this and couldn't the car spun across the road about 10ft, and hit a curb.
There was not a scratch on the actual car and the grass verge was only slightly damaged (I think where I was trying to get back off the grass).

I tried to drive the car but couldn't. A motorist pointed out my headlight had fallen out. I picked this up off the road and drove about 5 yards thinking all was ok, ( as it wasn't a bad accident). I could here vibrations so I pulled over onto the grass verge. I thought it was something under the car but it wasn't. When the recovery vehicle came he checked the car, as I said the paintwork wasn't scratched at all but the rear wheel drivers side was virtually hanging off.

This is the damage I have been advised is wrong my mate tells me there is no way I was not speeding due to the amount of damage, I can assure you I wasn't hence why I am after a bit of advice, how all this damage could possibly happen.

Are you ready?

Sub Frame Snapped,
Both driveshafts broken,
Rear Wheel Hub broken in two,
Radiator Bent,
Both wheels damaged driver side,
Headlight broken,
Both Wheel Arches Covers broken,

And a few other bits and pieces. Been told at the moment no reverse gear but this worked after I curbed the car as I had to reverse slightly for the recovery truck.

Any advice would be appreciated.

I'm not clear on what advice you're looking for.

If you're wondering how you could have caused that much damage from a simple spin out, it's quite possible. You don't say how fast you were going at the time of the spin, but even a "slow" 15mph would be enough to do that much damage. Porsches were not designed to stop sideways into curbs using the wheels as the stopping mechanism.

There are plenty of threads here about people who lost their Boxsters on wet or damp roads. It happens. With the amount of damage you've listed, you may have totaled your car. You may want to look into a 987 with PSM - Porsche Stability Mgnt, which is a computer system to assist when things get going sideways. It's also known as Please Save Me!

Good luck with your situation.

I would envisage about 15mph, I understand Porsches aren't designed to go sideways, just wandering how on earth, I could total the car only driving slow. Thanks for the advice though, truly appreciated, at least in my head now I know this can happen. TBH I posted as my mate, whom I had the car on test drive from blatantly thinks I was speeding and I know I wasn't.

What kind of shape are your rear tires in? Good tread or not? Sort of irrelevant at this point I guess, but I just wonder if wet road + balding tires + accelerating in a turn all conspired to do you in. Sorry for your predicament---with that damage in a '99, it would seem dangerously close to totaled. Have you gotten estimates?

Just a guess, but from your list of broken items, I notice that you state that both drive shafts are broken. Not sure if it is possible to break both drive shafts from only getting hit on one side, so I theorize that a drive shaft may have broken as you were exiting the roundabout and that is what caused you to slide into the curb.

£3k up to now, so I think it is totalled. I don't think anything was wrong with the tread.

I have to be honest and say I do not know much about cars, especially Porsches do they have more than one driveshaft (I know I have listed this but I have listed what the garage has said). How common is it for a drive shaft to break, bearing in mind the Porsche was 12 years old? I would also like to Thank you for your response.

Boxsters are built to be light weight and handle curves. The are not that stout in terms of durability. I have learned this the hard way as well. I bottomed my car out on an unfamiliar back road. It did not feel that bad, but when I went to shift, I realized something was not right. In my case both lower tranny mount bosses cracked. The tranny came to rest on top of the rear sub frame. Porcshe in it's infinite wisdom cast the bosses into the case, and do not make that part of the case available so the only option is to install a new/used tranny. The impact also destroyed all 4 CV boots. So I here ya, I had my Box for all of 2 months when it happened. The only good thing is that it forced my hand on the IMS as it did not make sense not to do it when the tranny was being replace. Keep in mind that my Tranny was never impacted, it was strictly inertia that did the damage.

What you did was a blunt impact to the car in an area and from an angle in which it was not designed to take a blow. I am not surprised at all that it suffered the damage you mentioned.

Light weight, rear drive cars should be driven with care in anything but bone dry conditions. A quick light rain will make the roads very slick because it's just enough to release some oil from the surface of the pavement but not enought to wash it away. Be careful out there!

I believe that your mechanic is referring to the axle shafts on your car as the tranny is a one piece trans-axle. The drive between the differential and transmission that we normally think of as a drive shaft is inside the transmission case.

this is probably the most painful part. took the car on a test drive and possibly totaled it. hopefully your friend is a good one...

Is this possible for it too snap just driving around a roundabout?

Doubtful, but anything's possible. I doubt the shaft itself is snapped, likely the joint at one end. I would have likely started making quite a racket long before it broke. Even if it was something internal to the trans-axle, it would have likely given an aural warning.

The majority of these cars do not have limited slip diffs, which makes them even more of a handful in the wet. It is not hard at all to break the rear end loose in damp/wet conditions. once it goes, if the driver gets off the gas, it just exacerbates the issue. The only chance of saving it is to modulate the throttle and steer into the slide. Not an easy task in a split second and not something you think about. It has to be a natural/muscle memory type of reaction and that only comes from practicing...in an area that is curb and obstacle free.

shadrach74 Is on point, I lost an X19 on an off ramp at 19, (had all different brands of tires on it for those interested). Once you lose a mid engine you never forget it, it spins in a unique way and recovery is twitchy. I stored that experience and have always been gentle with all Porsche cars in the wet. I have also not pushed the spyder anywhere near as hard as the 986 in a corner yet as I am still learning the car characteristics.

Based on the accident you described it doesn't sound totaled if you get a roller donor car and do the work.

On point as well. I've posted this before, but I'll post it again: The above warning goes TRIPLE if you're on summer performance tires and if it's both wet and cold. I've done it and had no time to recover---had my ass end in front in the blink of an eye. Was not even accelerating in a turn---was moving in a straight line, going up a gentle slope and punched it ever-so-slightly. That's all it took.

I won't say that I never drive with summer tires when it's cold, but I definitely take it easy. And if there's even a trace of dampness on the road, I drive like a Granny. :o

A loose condition is definately recoverable, in all conditions, it just takes some practice:)

My wife took my S for a "spin" one day. Fortunately she missed everything.
Managed to even stop conveniently without punching the fence and enough
dry ground to allow me to drive along the gulley and get it out of there.

Hard to appreciate from the photo -- but it's a good 20' drop off.

Amazingly nothing but pride and ego were damaged.

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1346270857.jpg

I've since had the back end twitch on me at the same spot she lost it, but
with much less exiting results.

Once you fix it up -- goto an HPDE and get a feel for car control and really enjoy that Boxster.

Mike

I probably have most of those parts from my used 2001 S or 2000 Base that I am parting out.

No idea how much to ship to UK from Texas -- but otherwise I can save you a bundle.

email me at mike@lonestarrpm.com if you are interested.

This thread seems a tad suspicious to me. A word of caution if any transactions are about to take place involving money, parts etc.

I hope I am wrong.

I did something simliar 3 years ago - wanted a boxster forever, took one for a drive on a foggy damp December day. Spun it leaving a roundabout, mounted the grassy kerb and hit a lamppost side on. Mostly front 1/4 damge to wing, raditor etc. £3k damage and I bought the car as I had bent it. Sold it straight away, but it was an expensive test drive.

I learnt 2 things, the power of the boxster needs to be understood in bad road conditions to prevent the back end coming round, alway check insurance state when test driving. Oh and make sure spouse is rewarded for not complaining too much about the cost that we had nothing to show for.

Yeah, I think that's true in the large majority of cases. Have to admit to one handicap that evening: did have a Dewers (ONE) under my belt at the time, never a problem before when things that I've experienced before behind the wheel happen to me---and I've been driving a lotta years (40+). But this I'd never experienced in the Box before. The summer tires were cold---I guess it was in the low-40s, and with the precip on the road (it wasn't raining when I left home), it seemed like they become hard, inflexible, slick. My tread was very good. There was nowhere near enough water on the road for hydroplaning to be an issue (especially with the deep tread). As noted, it was a pretty half-hearted acceleration producing the spin-out---I don't think I was doing any more than maybe 30 mph. And (I failed to mention in my earlier post) I did counter-steer properly. BUT I suppose, with the scotch on board, that response was probably a few microseconds slower than it would otherwise have been.

But this was VERY different than anything I had experienced before. I have, in a pretty major way, broken the tail end loose in the Box before and, using the accelerator as well as the steering wheel, have been able to recover just fine. This time was different, like some big hand reached down and gave my rear end a sudden hard shove sideways. Nevertheless, when I counter-steered I was FULLY CONFIDENT it would correct, a confidence that likewise was measurable in microseconds. As always, correcting a problem such as this is a matter not only of doing the right things, but also doing them in a timely fashion! Live and learn...

Quite unique but you still hit the tree and die.

Top Gear Understeer and Oversteer explained - YouTube

OK, maybe I shouldn't have said ALL conditions! Sub-40° with ANY moisture could spell serious trouble with Summer-only tires.

so who is paying? and how much?

I learned my lesson last weekend. I was driving in the wet on the freeway, knowing that my rears were worn to the wear limit so I decided to check the rear traction. I made sure there was nobody close to me and I accelerated fairly hard in third gear, on concrete, in a straight line, around 50 mph. The rear immediately started to come around, pointing me to the right and headed right for a concrete wall. I countersteered full lock to the left, the car snapped back the other way and spun 360, so now I'm pointed in the right direction at least.

Put it in first gear and move off slowly. I look in the rearview and there are a few cars that are careful to keep their distance from me. Oopsie.

Don't know if the OP has had driving instruction, but I spun my Boxster a few months after buying it and I had several seasons of autocross under my belt at the time. Luckily because i knew which way to turn the wheel when the back end gets jumpy I avoided a wreck with a parked car that was inches away. Yep...it was wet out.

When you transition from slow to faster while turning the wheel on wet ground...you better be used to quick flicks of the wheel and good with quick reactions. I was really stunned at how quickly the car did a full 180. The car is neutral but isn't loyal about it.

I lost the rear end of a non-PSM '97 Boxster going quite slowly in a hairpin in Tasmania. It's certainly easy enough to do if the road is slick (which this one was) and if you apply the power a bit earlier than you should have (which I did). Fortunately I was going slowly enough to not slide into the retaining wall as it was a rental car and had a rather exciting insurance excess.

Yeah, that sounds familiar. With my mishap, I had just left a stop light and, being at the front of the line of cars, headed out first, fortunately moving a bit quicker than the others at the light. Had put some useful distance between me and them when I managed to break the rear end loose---had the road to myself, basically. By the time the show was over (moments later) I'm sure they'd all slowed to a crawl, no doubt wondering what in hell it was I was doing. As I sat, nails digging into the steering wheel and me all goofy on adrenaline, they crawled past giving me a very wide berth.

The mid-engine Box has a lower moment of inertia than a front or rear engine car. The car is more likely to spin. Just as when figure skaters spinning pull their arms and legs in closer to their bodies, there is a remarkable increase in spin. No gettin around it.

Thanks for the memories. I think I was about 19 when I spun my X1/9 on a freeway off ramp. Did a 360 and banged off both walls. Bald tires, wet pavement, too much speed and the characteristics of a mid-engine car.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure this is true? My understanding (and, to some extent, my experience) is that, with the mid-engine design it's actually less likely to spin...BUT once she goes the figure skater phenomenon kicks in---the car then spins with reckless (and hopefully for the driver, "wreckless") abandon!

A mid engine car is more neutral and is somewhat less likely to "oversteer" than a rear engined car. However, when the word "spin" is mentioned that is what is really meant...as in like a top. I mid-engined car will spin unlike any other car because the CG is in the center.

it does not take much to spin a boxster in the wet . PSM is a great system for those conditions . The damage he got is what you would get in any other car . no car can handle side impacts to the suspension and drive components .

There's no snap oversteer issues in the Boxster unlike the Toyota MR2... sounds like someone either has bald rear tires or suspension problem...

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/us...622/bsflag.gif

Boxsters, even though they are mid engine, the center of mass is still in the rear, not as much as a 911, but still rear biased. I think what happens, at least what happened to me, is that when the rear starts to come around, your natural reaction is to lift off the gas and grab the brakes, which slows the whole car down. But the car is now sideways, and since the center of mass is towards the rear, the rear has more momentum , which will push the rear out even further leading to a spin.

The fix is counter intuative, stay on the gas so the car doesn't slow and countersteer, but it happens so fast that its hard to resist lifting and braking.

The trouble with stability control is that it is as good as the tires on the car. If you have bald tires the world's best stability control will not save you.

unfortunately the roads in the Uk are not as good as they should, or could be..

in some areas they are not unlike some that could be found around Lagos. :mad: what with worn surfaces, often damp and debris accumulating on the roads it doesn't take much, i've managed to 270 mine like it seems other have done.

also a bit of diesel spill on a damp road can make the sphincter tighten.

Besides the fact that going only 15MPH in a Boxster in a roundabout is improbable. I am not surprised by the damage you listed. Think about it, 2000 lb's of metal is coming to a complete stop, and all of that energy is going through the rims, hubs, etc.

Today I was watching a re-run of Top Gear and they made a comment that the old 911's were so prone to spinning in the wet that people would go roundabouts when it was raining to "watch bankers climb trees with their 911s."