The new Boxster - the triumph of technology over skill?

[Ghostrider 310]

Originally Posted by pothole

But that's precisely the point. Treat each technology on its merit.

Gear synchros? Don't detract from involvement, do improve gear changing. Tick.

ABS? Rare cuts in on the road when pressing on unless you're hamfisted, possibly a bit more intrusive on track. A qualified tick.

Power steering? Another one that's a bit in between depending on the system in question and preferences.

PDK? Removes gearbox and clutch control from the driver. Reduces involvement. Cross.

We can of course argue the details for each technology. But it's just not true to make this a binary argument in which you must either embrace any new technology or reject it. In other words, it's perfectly logical and reasonable to reject PDK but embrace gear synchros.

Like I said, each on its merits. PDK makes driving so much less fun.

Simply stated this is wrong, in the right hands a PDK car would kick your butt no matter how close to an Andretti you might think you're shifting.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

Simply stated this is wrong, in the right hands a PDK car would kick your butt no matter how close to an Andretti you might think you're shifting.

Eh, who said anything about being fast? Not me. I'm interested in maximum enjoyment. Whether I'm fast or no is a separate matter.

Also, it's not wrong that you lose control of the gearbox and clutch. This is a very simple, very demonstrable fact. They are controlled by computer actuators. The end.

I'm completely groovy with people preferring PDK, but I don't understand why they so frequently talk utter nonsense in defence of it.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by pothole

Eh, who said anything about being fast? Not me. I'm interested in maximum enjoyment. Whether I'm fast or no is a separate matter.

For some people it's hard to separate the two, apparently.

[ekam]

Originally Posted by pothole

Eh, who said anything about being fast? Not me. I'm interested in maximum enjoyment. Whether I'm fast or no is a separate matter.

Well, if we want fast we'd all be driving vettes won't we?

[Coffinhunter]

Originally Posted by ekam

Well, if we want fast we'd all be driving vettes won't we?

I'd rather have my balls pounded flat with a hammer than drive a vette.


But if top speed was the goal.....there is a model or two of Porsche's that would do the trick!

[ekam]

I bet that doesn't have a 3rd pedal.

Woman Driver Breakes Into Grocery Store With Her Porsche - YouTube

[thstone]

Originally Posted by ekam

Well, if we want fast we'd all be driving vettes won't we?

No, that would require a labotomy. Instead we'd all be driving 997's.

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by bar10dah

I got a wrench to throw into the works!

The next time you, or your wife/kids, fly commercial... do you want them flying in a plane with simple controls from a 1940s Cub? Or the automation of a modern aircraft?

But really, it's all about the tools. We should be able to choose what tools we want and what we don't want. From what I've been reading in the current Porsche rags, the hardcore racing heritage Porsche drivers don't mind the modern electronics in Porsches, just as long as it's an option and they can opt-out.

If the pilots of Air France FLT 447 had spent more time in a 40's era aircraft, they'd have not ended up riding a stalled aircraft into the sea killing 216 passengers. That is a notable example of users focusing on technology rather than skill. Dreadful outcome due to a technological malfunction an out come that could have been avoided using basic aeronautical concepts learned in private pilot training...

I see the same thing happening as personal aircraft become more technologically advanced, safety improves statistically, but skill sets atrophy as technology is increasingly relied upon. Most pilots I know are heavily dependent on GPS. Their ability to use other navaids and or dead reckoning has suffered as a result.

There's a balance, and each technological advance must be analyzed on it's own merits...

[firstporsche]

I went to the Porsche World Road Show on 6/8/12 at Monticello Car Club Racetrack. We drove the new 2012: 911, 911s, Boxster S, Cayenne, and Panamera. All of them had PDK.

Although I can really appreciate the PDK for what it does and how well it does it (i.e. excellently), I still have a fondness and preference for the manual gearbox in my 2002 Boxster. I have no doubt that the PDK is faster than I am, but for me, shifting is a great part of the fun and experience of driving.

The new Boxster S is amazing, though. A little longer, a little wider stance, and lots more power. Still a VERY nimble and agile sports car ... but then, so is mine.

[RobbieKnobbie]

All the electronic bells and whistles in the world wont put you on the right line through a corner. Nor will they compensate for the lost momentum coming out of it.

[dewolf]

To me driving a sports car should be engaging. Having the shifter in your hand and blipping the throttle as you heel and toe on the downchange while you push the lever forward is a well sychronsied event, and a learned skill. A manual gearbox is as engaging as it gets when you are drving in a sporting manner. I am at the moment teaching my 16 year old how to drive a manual in my Boxster. How to approach a corner and when to downshift, accelerating out of a corner and using the steering and throttle inputs to exit quickly. He loves it. He also realises you don't have to be going at break neck speeds to have fun. A good old manual gearbox is just plain fun.

And for the road nannies, my son's race karts and have a very good idea of speed and reading the 'ahead' road conditions. So please no ' should you be teaching your kids to drive fast' speeches. If more people taught their kids to drive fast properly there might'nt be as many useless deaths.

[southernstar]

bar10dah, I agree that I would rather fly with my family in a modern aircraft - but that is hardly the point. In that case, I and my family are passengers; my concerns about the new technology are purely from the perspective of driving enjoyment and the trend towards making new Porsches dummy-proof. Although I must admit, that as we progress towards auto-pilot technology, we will likely all become nothing much more than passengers!

It seems that even if the rarefied world of Formula 1 there are some who share my opinions. As you may recall. several years ago the cars had traction control - something which made effective starts (or effective exits from corners) much easier. Regardless of driver skill, the best car then became the fastest to the first turn and the best at accelerating out of turns. Formula one has now dropped this and the result is that driver skill has once again been placed at a premium. Watch the start to a number of grand prix and it will become apparent that a driver such as Fernando Alonso is generally able to pass one or more cars into the first turn - not because his car is faster or has a better program for traction control, but because he is able to maximize acceleration and avoid tire spin. Indeed, I believe that yesterday's Canadian Grand Prix was the first race this season in which he did not gain positioins (albeit he did not lose any either). Tire wear is also a huge factor this year in Formula 1 and it requires drivers who have the skill to run a fine line between being fast, and not overheating the tires through wide slip angles or wheel spin out of corners.

PDK and modern traction control (and Vector technology) do make for a faster car that is also easier to drive. And while I know that you can't stop progress, I for one think that it is beginning to turn sports cars into something other than 'driver's' cars.

Brad

[blue2000s]

I'm surprised we haven't seen a transmission with an optional clutch pedal yet. The third pedal is there but the driver can opt to let the car shift if desired. They've already put a manual version of the PDK transmission in the 991, how much of a leap could it be to add a mechanical interface to the computer control? I still wouldn't like the loss of feel, but considering the throttle and steering have already gone that way, why not?

[Ghostrider 310]

Originally Posted by ekam

Well, if we want fast we'd all be driving vettes won't we?

No, if you drove my car you would realize it is super fast in its own right, if you looked on top gear you would see it can beat SOME models of the vette and a couple Ferrari's too.

[stephen wilson]

Blue, I love that idea! A true stick-shift when you want it; Stuck in traffic?.... It's a PDK.

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

No, if you drove my car you would realize it is super fast in its own right, if you looked on top gear you would see it can beat SOME models of the vette and a couple Ferrari's too.

Simmer down there, GR310; no offense intended here but you're really starting to sound like you're on the playground arguing about who's daddy can beat up who's. We all know you have a Spyder. Great car. We've all read the reviews, and some of us have spent extensive time test driving them before deciding against for various reasons. But it remains a fine car. It stands on its own. It doesn't need you coming along defending it and talking about how fast it is every time that subject can be brought up. It's a pretty quick car, and very well balanced, but frankly, it's not that fast by today's standards of fast cars. Which is fine -- it's also not very expensive so I wouldn't expect it to be a world dominator. Just let it stand on its own.

[Ghostrider 310]

I don't mean to sound that way because frankly I don't give a ____ if he or anybody else believes it. I'm only trying to get across that the car accelerates in launch control at 4.2 60 mph, that is vette speed I don't need to pretend I have vette speed, my only point any my last one on this subject. And as far as a dominator it sure sounds like TC Kline is DOMINATING. I'm taking a page out of Jake's playbook, peace out have a nice summer everyone.

[pothole]

Jeesy chreesy, an appeal to Top Gear? Bleh.

I have little doubt the average driver in a PDK Spyder would blow off an average driver in most Corvette models. To be fair, the Spyder is a very quick car, point to point. Much quicker than most people realise. There's little that will be significantly quicker in the real world on public roads. But who cares? That has nothing to do with driving enjoyment.

No doubt an entirely computer controlled Spyder would be even quicker than a human driven PDK Spyder. But that wouldn't make sitting there doing nothing but going faster more fun than actually driving but going slower.

This is the key difference that most PDK fanciers seem to miss. It's not about frigging lap times. It's about involvement and enjoyment. If PDK gives you that, fair enough. But the speed thing is totally irrelevant.