11,000 pictures of failed IMS bearings. Wow. That is the first concrete statement I have read on any discussion forum about the number of documented failures. Assuming there were 200,000 engines built with the IMS bearing, that would mean that Jake has documentation of around a 5% failure rate and that doesn't even take into consideration the additional failures he doesn't have photos of. If a published engine failure rate of 5% doesn't obliterate the value of our cars, it is hard to imagine what would. I can't believe that with this rate of total engine failure, costing approximately $100,000,000 in damages (at a cost of approximately $10,000 per failure) that there has not been some slime bag lawyer willing to put up a couple hundred thousand dollars of his own money in expert witness fees and litigation costs to get to the bottom of this (and get really really rich). While Jake may be "the" expert on IMS failure, I am sure there are plenty of other engineers out there willing to give their opinions about the cause of IMS failure and the fact that the IMS bearing is a defective design. And when the fleabag lawyer can't/doesn't win the class action suit because the facts don't support a defective design, the engineer expert witness doesn't give his fee back. If filing and winning such a class action suit were so easy, it would have been done already and we all would have received a $20 gift certificate for a Porsche ball cap and the lawyers would have collected their millions in fees. Until then, let's continue to use derogatory terms to describe greedy attorneys and continue to praise those brave, patriotic, pioneering engineers who saw a market and chose to take advantage of it.

Another thread posted by a poor chap who experienced an expensive issue simply asking for advice that has devolved into another pissing match by others.....and the beat goes on

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...eller/jump.gif

Yeah you know what .. sorry for my part in dragging this off topic OP.

Uhmm .. I'm not following your logic .. for a single engine failure Jake could take 1-1000 pictures documenting the tear down / build up ? I don't think you can assume each picture is a unique failed IMS bearing.

vijen6, sorry for the sarcasm. Jake said he had 11,000 photos of engine failures that if posted on the internet would tank the value of our cars, just like a class action suit or 60 minutes expose would, according to Jake, "obliterate" the value of our cars. It seems that every engine failure thread on a porsche forum is hyped with a "sky is falling" attitude and the inevitable posts by Jake and his vocal supporters that his "fix" is the holy grail. I don't understand why Jake's decision to take a risk, make an investment and profit from his work is regarded as admirable while attorneys who are investigating the possibility of taking Porsche to task are derided as slimy, greedy, flea bags. The last time I checked, Jake isn't doing anything for free (and shouldn't) and his work has not resulted in Porsche refunding a single dollar to anyone who bought a defective car. I recall that a class action suit involving the Allante resulted in Cadillac issuing fully assignable, transferable coupons for $7000 off the purchase of a new Caddy. BMW issued 6 year, 100,000 mile warranties on defective engines after legal action was initiated. Don't let anyone fool you. If there were grounds to file a class action, it would have been done, with or without Jake's cooperation, long ago. Likewise, if there were anywhere near 11,000 IMS bearing failures, the value of our cars would have been reduced to zero long ago and there would be broken down porsches littering our highways and the junkyards would be overflowing with them. I have been following the bearing failure issue for years as I have owned cars with affected engines continuously since 2003. As far as I can remember, no one has even determined the reason the bearings are failing. I have read much supposition and guessing but nothing concrete. If Jake knows the reason for the failures, he's not telling, and neither is anyone else.

I have documented 23 modes of engine failure. My data base of photos is a smorgasbord of those, not just IMS failures.

We see more failures than anyone and have more interaction with these engines than anyone else- you don't call me unless you are looking for a lifeline.

If your asking a independant professional engineer to stand up in court and prove that Porsche had a design deficency in a mechanism with about a 10% failure rate it wont ever happen.

Jake

I don't think anybody sane dismisses the notion that these engines have major engineering problems that lead to premature failure or that your outfit has carved out a significant niche and developed extensive expertise in repairing them (though I would think there's at least one outfit and probably two or three in the UK that would take issue with your characterisation of having a unique status as such).


However, I would suggest there's more to this than people getting upset with you for criticising the engineering of their pride and joy and wanting to stick their heads in the sand / fingers in ears.

There's also a certain level of bombasticness to your posts, extensive blowing of own trumpet and also an impression of being less than forthcoming on occasion. These are just impressions, I make no claim as to the facts.

As it happens, I also disagree that being more forthcoming about the failures would obliterate values or new sales. I doubt it would have much impact at all, personally, and I think you're teetering on the edge of delusions of grandeur, imagining that you hold Porsche second hand values or new sales in the palm of your hand.

Moreover, in my day job, I happen to have interviewed several world leading engineers (not in the automotive industry, by the by), some of whom are borderline household names thanks to their innovative work. What they all shared was a disarming modesty. They had nothing to prove. They were also very willing to entertain contrary views to their own from non experts, even on subjects on which they were probably the world's leading authority, and did so in good spirits no matter how dumb the questions put them (not doubt including my own).

I've read lots of your posts over the last couple of years of owning an M96 car and have to say some of them definitely make me uneasy.

Ahh, you were being sarcastic. Now I see what you did there .. :cheers:

To be fair, I do admire Jake's business acumen to a certain point. The difference in perception might be because Jake did succeed in creating a solution while lawyers are only in it for their hourly fees.

Oh Great! another internet "fact" rumor has begun because another "intellectual" keyboard warrior is overly anxious to critisize the very people that add so much value to this forum not to mention sponsoring it. Reading comprehension is so critical to knowledge attainment. HINT: is it possible Jake Raby took more than 1 pic of each IMSB & other failures??

HINT: This would be a good time to come back with an "Oh, Never mind. I didn't read the rest of the thread." We're waiting patiently! :)

Unfortunately I am unable to remove the false statement of information posted by linklaw & searchable by anyone for the forseeable future.

Sarcasm happens. Ya can't just refrain from it for fear that a literalist will run across it someday on the internet and get scared! :cheers:

BYprodriver, I was not being critical of Jake, or anyone else, with my posts. What false statement are you talking about? Here is the quote from Jake that prompted my original (sarcastic) post:

"That said the pictures of failed components on my site is less than 20, the total of my database of component pics is over 11,000.

If I wanted to obliterate these vehicles and engines I'd post every single one of them.
Want a sample? Here ya go."

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of reading comprehension involved with interpreting that statement. I assumed he was referring to failed IMS bearing photos as that is the subject of this thread. Why would photos of other failed components have any relevance? Is there a photo of a failed seat belt retractor or center console lid that will tank the value of our cars? I see now that he is referring to other component failures that have caused engines to self destruct, in addition to the IMS bearing.

Howe points out that even with a 10% failure rate, one would be hard pressed to find a professional engineer to testify that the design is defective. Maybe this is the reason no class action suit has been filed? Maybe the design isn't defective but the installation of the bearing is incorrect in some engines? maybe the design of the bearing is fine, but premature seal failure causes the bearing to fail? Maybe an imbalance somewhere else in the engine causes the bearing to fail? If anyone knows the answer, I sure haven't seen it published anywhere.

Jake

I am a former speedster owner and have heard of you through the Soc as well. As a matter of fact there was about thirty times I picked up the phone to call you for my 1600cc motor in my vintage built speedster. Now I own one of these great cars 2002 986 with 35000 mklss and I gotta say that if I had your smarts or capabilities I would not need you. Rest assured my friend if my engine blows you WILL be getting a call from Me. Not to discuss lawsuits or anything else other than to do what you do best which is build a sweet ass motor. I don't have the money so fingers crossed but if I do you will be first on my list. I appreciate your knowledge and wisdom and all that you do to keep people moving in their rides...

Todd from Jacksonville

There is one way to solve that.

That said, checking out of here. See ya.

If you actually simply love Boxsters, and are simply all about driving your Boxsters, and are already fine with buying them despite the engine failure risks, then you should actually be all for the idea of the engine failures becoming well known via 60 Minutes or a class action suit, etc. and then the value of Boxsters dropping precipitously. Then when yours fails, you will be able to economically replace it. You were already willing to pay the current price for the risk, why wouldn't you rather pay less for the risk?

Few Boxster owners bought their cars as investments.

I want one but am hesitant to drop $25,000+ on one just to worry every time I turn the key may be the last. I'd feel a lot better if it only cost me $8,000. Then I could buy three and hope at least one survives for my driving pleasure.

Nice angle Top Chuckie. I find it odd to read posts by those who dislike others who research and develop fixes and modifications to the 986. I'm thankful those options are available. My IMSB looked like she had little life in it, glad I'm roll'n the LN.

The Box will never be a wise Porsche investment, look into older 911s, they're out pacing the stock market 5 fold.

You're correct in there not being a whole lot of reading comprehension required, but you also pointed out in your next statement that you assumed he was referring to just IMS bearings. He said the total of photos in his database of failed components is at 11,000...meaning 11,000 photos, and meaning only 11,000 photos of failed components, not specifically of failed IMS bearings, and of course certainly not meaning each is a single picture of a failure instance.

All I'm saying here is that I did not read and comprehend that statement in the same way you did to mean 11,000 pictures of just failed bearings...I'm not trying to box with you. :matchup::rolleyes:

Maybe there aren't seat belt retractor failure pics and such, but I imagine he'd have pics of failed chain tensioners and their aftermath, and maybe something as obscure and unheard of (but not impossible) as the crappy plastic cover for the oil filter having been destroyed by some sort of road debris, causing the engine to pretty much bleed out to failure.

You're right in that the 11,000 pictures do not have as much relevance to this thread because it was a general statement about component failures in this car, I'm not debating that notion. It simply accomplishes an effect for those who will skim the writeup, see "11,000" and go :eek: Unfortunately nothing can be done to stop that.

I think by the time anybody really figured out what the heck was happening with these cars it was too little too late to bring anything against Porsche. The way I see it, if it caused the car values to tank, fine, then many more people would scoop them up, make the necessary repairs, and in the end spend the same money they would now just to buy the car, but have a bulletproofed engine...works for me. :cheers:

IMO, currently the crowd the 986 ( and old porsches in general ) attract is primarily gear head / weekend driving event enthusiast / and Porsche addicts.

Now that the price of your average 986 is already way cheaper than a brand new Honda Civic! The average "bling" crowd .. meaning the soccer mom, mid life crisis doodes .. has mostly moved onto newer, "better" show off rides .. like the 987 or 997. This bling crowd is the crowd that will potentially let these IMS horror story scare them away.

Replacing them is the new crop of teen drivers who wants a 'Porsche drop top' to show off instead of buying that fiscally responsible Civic. This is the crowd that will make up their mind after perhaps glancing at ONE post out of an entire thread. If the IMS issues also scares this crowd away when I want to sell my car, honestly I'm fine with that.

The primarily gear head / weekend driving event enthusiast / and Porsche addicts crowd will be the one buying my car be able to appreciate it much more.

My 2c.

another 550 that didn't make it to 40K miles. Amazing.

Hyundai slaps a 10 year warranty on their cars and they cost nowhere near what that 550 Anniversary, super, duper, all fancy trim available Boxster did.

Didn't even make it to the 8 year mark. A car presumably designed and builit with long term ownership like so many other special edition Porsches.


Porsche, when you read these stories, and we all know you do, are you embarrased? Your company is making record revenues and profits from Cayennes and Panameras globally. Yet a Korean econobox car company stands by their cars more than you do?

I would suggest that the following statements reflect the current state of affairs;

• Nearly all current 986 owners are aware of the IMSB issue and know about their options to address it (if they desire).
  
  
• Nearly all 986 buyers know about the IMS issue if they do even the most precursory investigation into Boxster ownership prior to buying the car.
  
  
• Porsche is well aware of the issue and isn't going to fix it or address it.
  
  
• Lawyers are well aware of the issue and do not see a path to pursue a legal solution.
  
  
• Independent experts are well aware of the issue and are not motivated to participate in the legal process.
  
  
• More companies will see the IMSB situation as an opportunity for profit. Some will be trustworthy, some will not.
  
  
• With sellers, buyers, maintainers, and experts all aware of the issue, the market price of a used 986 has already adjusted for the perceived risk associated with Boxster ownership and the IMSB issue.
  
  
• The prices for used 996's have also adjusted accordingly.
  
  
• This situation is unlikely to change for the foreseeable future.

I agree with all but the 1st line.

I believe the LN IMSB is a permanent solution to the IMSB issue & the cost to implement the solution is offset by the depreciation the original issue caused if you are purchasing a 986/996 now.

it appears that Mr. Raby would disagree with that per his "IMS Solution", references. It would seem that some anticipate the LN IMSB, while very solid, may not be a "final" solution to the problem.

appearances can be deceiving, my theory assumes proper installation & maintenance.

The following is from the LN Engineering website. You can deicde for yourself if LN is saying that their bearing is a permanent replacement or not.

That said, we've put the best bearings we can in our IMS Retrofit™ Kits and IMS Upgrades to give your M96 the best fighting chance for a long service life. However, with any mechanical system, we do expect there to be failures. With thousands IMS Upgrade and IMS Retrofit™ bearings in service, we have experienced zero failures of intermediate shafts with our triple bearing IMS Upgrade and similarly zero failures of the dual row bearing IMS Retrofit™s. However, of all three revisions of the intermediate shaft used by Porsche, the single row bearing found on some 2000-2001 and all 2002-2005 models is the most flawed and even with our ceramic bearing, we have had five engine failures total where the single row ceramic bearing was found to have failed (although not conclusively as the cause of the engine failure, given there are dozens of known modes of failure and secondly, these are open bearings susceptible to damage from foreign object debris). Even so, we have over a 99.9% success rate in the 3+ years our bearings have been in service.

It may be advisable to consider the IMS a service item, like a timing belt in many modern cars. Seeing that we started to see more MY05 engines with IMS failures in late 2009 as well as failures in MY06 (with revised 3rd gen bearing) in late 2010, that may suggest that bearing replacement (or inspection at bare minimum) should be considered as part of the normal maintenance every 4-5 years or 50-60k miles, maybe even sooner with the case of the single row bearing.

I disagree. For better or worse, the Box is a mass market car. Most owners don't have a clue. I'd be surprised if as many as 3/10 Boxster owners had any clue about the IMS bearing or even that their car has such a thing.

LN Knows better than to claim the LN IMSB is a permanent solution, but that in no way diminishes the quality of the part.

I have to agree. In talking to my mechanic about the number of IMS bearings they've upgraded (LOTS) it seemed to me like most were adding it to their clutch replacement after being advised by the mechanic. Otherwise, and like most who visit a Porsche dealer for new clutch, they were clueless of the issue.

The other issue I have to disagree about is that failures are now priced into market prices. I believe we're only seeing the start of IMS failures.
986/987/996's are now entering that point where average mileage is starting to climb well north 50K. The cars are changing hands from folks who didn't drive the car every day to buyers who are driving the cars far more frequently which only speeds up the demise of vulnerable IMS cars. The lower the prices for Boxster go from simple price depreciation, the more people will buy these cars, drive them hard and many will not consider the problems that have been cooking from oil change intervals that were inadequate, Porsche approved oils that were inadquate and infrequent driving from the previous owner which allowed seals to dry out and become brittle.

The IMS Solution is the answer to the permanent IMS retrofit.
Thats the entire reason we have developed it. BUT even the IMS Solution can be serviced in the future if someone wanted to and its actually easier than the current retrofit or OEM bearing.

Until a major design change is made the IMS bearing will remain a component that requires periodic maintenance. With the IMSR now 4 years old we are seeing engines being "serviced" already.

Put plainly a total overkill, ceramic composite hybrid roller bearing is the best "retrofit" available that utilizes the original bearing design. The solution has taken us 3 years to develop and we have broken a TON of stuff doing it.. BUT the best part is every time it failed in initial development the engine was NEVER compromised by collateral damages.. No foreign object debris, no valve/ piston contact and no valve timing deviations. It is designed from a "fail safe" aspect and thats exactly what it has proven and I have documented. One failure occurred at WOT 7,200 RPM against the rev limiter and the engine was not compromised.... I was on the throttle when it happened. Version 1 lasted 11 hours, version 2 lasted one minute, version 3 lasted 48 hours (never failed, just excessive wear), version 4 lasted 40 hours (no failure, more wear than version 3) and we are on the current version 5 with flawless performance through small changes made to the components and processes.

We are testing it now for compatibility with variables as the final frontier before release.. Don't expect to see it until 2014, it'll take that long to rack up the mileage on the beta testers with all the variables employed, get the patent protection wrapped up and develop the kits and tools for installation.

Collateral damage from IMSB failures are what kills engines the worst.

MB sorry to see this happen to you and all the others that have this misfortune. I applaud the efforts of Jake and LN for the upgrades we have available. But putting in a brand new engine at a cost of 15-20k is ridiculous!!!!! You can buy another car for far less in most cases. New engine has a few more upgrades etc etc but how did it go from 5-7k to 20k? Is this a move from Porshe to wipe these cars completely off the road?

Is it me or does it seem like a lot of 550 cars blow up ? If these motors suck that bad why do I see so many high mileage cars for sale . lots with 125K or more . i recently saw a 97 boxster for sale with 175k on it and i doubt it had its IMS replaced. It is a fact that they all have the potential to blow but explain all the high mileage cars that are still running? If my car makes it 100k without blowing I will be fine with that even if it blows at 101K because at that point they are not worth **************** anyway !

I believe we're talking about an engine that costs $5-7k if you buy it through some other means, probably around $12-15k if you buy it from Porsche, and something knocking on the door of $20k if you both buy the engine from Porsche and have them install it.

Nobody ever said the motors suck. There are two inescapable facts here, one is that some of these motors last forever, and the other is that some of these motors blow up unexpectedly and at an early age. From these two facts, there are two kinds of people:

(1) people who look at the odds of the engine grenading, and think it will never happen to them, and if it does, they love the car so much they'll just buy a new engine and screw the cost, and

(2) people who look at the odds and see a significant risk that the engine in their $50K car could grenade at any time, and don't love the car so much that they feel like they should have a risk of having to pay another five figures to keep it running.

It's an emotional issue and I'm trying my best not to be emotional. I don't think either group is "wrong." There are too many factors that control what group you are in: your personality type, how much you like the car, what you believe about the likelihood of the engine blowing up, how much $$$ you have available and your willingness to spend it on repairs, etc. Personally I am a pessimistic, cheapskate worrywart with no extra cash, it pisses me off that there is even a remote possibility that the engine might grenade the day I'm off my warranty, I have had nothing but rotten experiences with the local dealer, and to top matters off, where I drive there is so much traffic I'm not even enjoying the car all that much. So that tells you where I stand, but other people are in different situations and I can respect the fact that they have different attitudes.

Johnsimion, assuming you are referring to the IMS issue there's a 3rd group of people. Those who are willing to apply the IMS fix to their cars to eliminate at least IMS-related engine destruction. Sadly there is also a 4th group. The group of people who unfortunately no nothing of this issue. And so they are never made aware of the existence of a fix either and their choice to decide to apply it.

Thanks for trying to answer my question. And I am kind of familiar with those numbers. But I was thinking along the lines of Jakes quote 5-7k for a NEW engine. Some where along the line it more than doubled in price. Don't want to start another debate and take this thread way off track.:cheers:

[QUOTE=Jake Raby;293582]Look, when we started developing the solutions to these problems we were laughed at for even disassembling one of the engines. In those days a brand new engine cost 5-7K and it was considered a total waste of time to even think about repairing one...

2005 IMS failure at 29K miles
 

My 2005 had a catastophic IMS failure at 29k miles. At the last oil change at 28K miles no issues seen in the filter, no metal shavings. Cost for a replacement engine with 40K miles $8800, cost to instal (not dealer) $4000.

^^^Ouch!:(

I feel your pain. I have a 2003 Boxster with 65K miles and the same thing just happended to mine. This is the second engine for the car as the first one was replaced when the car had 13K miles. That was replaced due to a failed lifter. I am thinking I will sell the car to a salvage yard as the cheapest quote I have received for the installation of a used engine is $8,900. What did you end up doing with yours?

I feel your pain. I have a 2003 Boxster with 65K miles and the same thing just happended to mine. This is the second engine for the car as the first one was replaced when the car had 13K miles. That was replaced due to a failed lifter. I am thinking I will sell the car to a salvage yard as the cheapest quote I have received for the installation of a used engine is $8,900. What did you end up doing with yours?