Faster and Cheaper than a 911

[limoncello]

Just passed a newstand at lunch and saw the "Automobile" magazine with the headline about "The new Boxster Coupe: Faster and Cheaper than a 911".
Boy, those guys will do anything to sell a magazine, huh? Porsche isn't going to like this. Or maybe they will

[eslai]

Well, they ARE going off of the factory driver's times around the 'ring, not their own testing...

[wombat7]

I've heard on many other forums that the Cayman has been beating the 997 around the ring. I'm just waiting to see what the Club Sport version it does...

[tqtran]

Why is everyone believing these rumors cooked up from magazines...

The truth "The word from Porsche AG at Parade was that there are no plans to ever build RS, CS, or turbo versions of the Boxster or Cayman. Such performance enhanced track/race versions will continue to be reserved for the flagship 911."

edit:
And yes, I have been told that a mid engine car will eventually lead the line but that is what the CGT is for. Not to burst anyones' bubble but you have to think about it from a Porsche marketing stand point. The Cayman can not be allowed to be faster than the 911(hence a 3.4 engine), or no one would buy a 911. The 911 can never be faster than the CGT or no one would buy a CGT(hence GT2 is not faster than CGT).

Also you have to look at the statistics of Porsche owners. Only a small percent of owners actually track their cars, cabs and SUVs are the best selling autos, and half auto produced are tips. Point being, most owners don't care how well it performs, just that its expensive and looks good at the country club parking lot.
Example: 911 GT3 was a great car at a great price but was a poor seller because many 911 Porsche owners wanted comfort (IE : SUV or CAB) not a harse riding GT3.

I am with you that its retarded that the Cayman isn't as quick as it should be but I understand why. DO you? Do you really? It all about making $$$ and preserving image.

[BuffaloBoxster]

Originally Posted by tqtran

Not to burst anyones' bubble but you have to think about it from a Porsche marketing stand point. The Cayman can not be allowed to be faster than the 911(hence a 3.4 engine), or no one would buy a 911. The 911 can never be faster than the CGT or no one would buy a CGT(hence GT2 is not faster than CGT).

I call bull****************. Just look at Ferrari. The F430 does 0-100km/hr in 4.0 seconds and tops out at over 315 kph. The 575M does 0-100kp/hr in 4.2 seconds and tops out at around 325 kph. I don't have any lap times but I'd wager the 430 would be faster around the race track than the 575, yet the 575 costs around 40,000 more. The difference is that the 575 is a "traditional" Ferrari - front-engine V12. The 911 is a "traditional" Porsche, rear-engine flat 6.

911 will always be Porsche's defining car, and people will buy them because they think Porsches should be rear engined cars, regardless of how the Boxster performs.

Besides, if the Boxster could perform at 911 levels, couldn't they just raise the price accordingly?

[eslai]

Originally Posted by wombat7

I'm just waiting to see what the Club Sport version it does...

The official word from the PCA magazine is that there won't be a club sport version of the Cayman.

I still say "who cares". There's no reason to get ruffled about it--if you have the money for a track car, you can always just drop a bigger motor in your Cayman or have someone supercharge it or something. Are people really as pissed off about the power differential as tqtran makes it sound?

[tqtran]

Originally Posted by eslai

Are people really as pissed off about the power differential as tqtran makes it sound?

YES!, Check out the other forums (rennlist and flat-6). You will see.


But for all you Caymen CS wanters, supposedly Ruf is planning on putting a 3.6 flat 6 into one

" Ruf’s plans for the Cayman. It’s said the 380HP GT3 engine is available for $27k. After Ruf-tuning (DME, intake, headers, exhaust, etc.), it will generate 450 naturally-aspirated HP. This powerplant will be mounted in a lightweight (2400 pounds?) Cayman.

Total price is unknown, but the rumored recipe--a 450HP mid-engined lightweight coupe"

[Brucelee]

The market will sort all this stuff out.

If the Cayman starts to eat sales from the 911 line, I know Porsche is smart enough to deal with it.

I supposed that their strategy is to increase total sales, not cannibalize what they already have.

Since Porsche has the highest gross margins in the industry, I believe they have worked this through in their own minds.

If the 911 guys are unhappy, they can buy a Cayman, just like you and me!

Too much time on their hands???????????

[wombat7]

I really think that since the Cayman is getting the rave reviews that it is Porsche is giong to have to do something to make the 997 really shine. I think this is going to pave the way for Porsche to bump up the displacement of the 911. I bet the 2007 or 2008 model will have either a 3.8 or 4.0 in it.

It is really sad that Porsche isn't going to come out with a clubsport version of the Cayman. It would easily be made into a total track monster. I'm sure that soon after its release, we will see many dedicated track Caymans.

If any of you have seen the new Motortrend, they say the same thing about the Cayman that Automobile does. I really think that this car is going to steal a lot of sales away from the 997 and we are going to see serious performance upgrades done to that car. Also I think that we are going to see the price of 996s and 997s fall even more quickly then they already are, which is good news for us poor college kids who are soon going to be not so poor college graduates

[tqtran]

I don't think the Caymen will steal sales away from 911 owners. Its like saying the 06 BMW Z4 coupe or the current Z3 M coupe will steal away sales from the M3. I think the Caymen will actually steal sales away from M3, Vette, NSX, etc.... other car maker owners.

Granted the Caymen is a better track car, but you won't see me trading in my new '05 GT3 for a Caymen.
Personally I think the additions of the Caymen and Panamera(4 door sedan) to the Porsche lineup will make Porsche more like BMW and Merc than steal away internal sales. Remember what the Cayenne did to X5 and ML sales?
Different cars for different target classes.

[wombat7]

While I don't think the Cayman's introduction will effect new 911 sales, I do think it will have a significant effect on used 911 sales. Not so much the older classice 911s up to 993s, but the 996 sales are going to be effected greatly. Who is going to want to buy a used 911, when you can get a new Cayman for relatively the same price and it will greatly outperform the 911.

[Perfectlap]

does the article say that the CaymanS is quicker than the 911 or the 997?
Big difference there,
that these magazines could be exploiting knowing that the average car enthusiast will just assume the 05 Cayman is already quicker than the 05 911.
I HIGLY doubt that the test driver would be allowed to produce a quicker time in the less expensive car and then disclose that data to the public.

The 911 is a car with a backseat. As long as that's the case it will be Porsche's best seller. The average 911 owner is not a young guy without a wife and kids and without a high paying job. The 911 is a compromise between a big checkbook and a family man looking for ponies and looking to realize a life long dream.
The 911 brand is powerful but Porsche knows that it can't continue to avoid the calls by purists forever.
A huge compliment to the Boxster. I can't recall the last time that a roadster was turned into coupe that could on performance become the flagship car of a legendary make.

[tqtran]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

I can't recall the last time that a roadster was turned into coupe that could on performance become the flagship car of a legendary make.

First Corvette in 1953 was a roadster. Its now Chevy's flagship car.

[wombat7]

Well... here we have the final answer as quoted from Excellence Magazine

“The ultimate measure of sports cars is Nürburgring lap times,” says Wahl. So how does the Cayman S stack up against the 997 Carrera? We put that question to Wolfgang Dürheimer. His response: “The Cayman S is eight seconds slower than the Carrera.” We’re confused, though, as Röhrl set a fast time of 7:59 in a Carrera S with 355 hp and the non-PASM Euro sport suspension — which would be only four seconds faster than the 8:03 lap time Dürheimer implies for the basic Carrera."

It seems that when put up against a basic 997 Carrera, the Cayman is only 4 seconds slower around the ring, but when put up against one with a Euro sport suspension, it is 8 seconds slower. I find this very interesting... 4 seconds is not a lot of time and for the $10K extra that you would pay for you basic C2, you could definately make the Cayman the superior car. Like I said this paves the way for the guys in Germany to put a 3.8 or 4.0 in an upcoming evolution of the car. Much like the Boxster S paved the way for the jump from 3.4 to 3.6 from 99 to 2000.

[Brucelee]

"While I don't think the Cayman's introduction will effect new 911 sales, I do think it will have a significant effect on used 911 sales. Not so much the older classice 911s up to 993s, but the 996 sales are going to be effected greatly. Who is going to want to buy a used 911, when you can get a new Cayman for relatively the same price and it will greatly outperform the 911."

I sell used 911s (a ton actually) and I predict that the Cayman will do nothing to the used 911 market (read 996) in the short run.

First off, the vast majority of my buyers want a Cab, not a coupe.

Secondly, a surprising number of them want and/or need a back seat. Yes, I know the back seat is kind of a joke but this comes up in conversation ALL THE TIME, ie, my son can fit back there!

Third-when I mention a Boxster to most of these buyers, I get a VERY negative reaction. In their minds, the Box is simply not an issue for them. I see the Cayman as still a Box and that is a good thing. But for my 911 buyers, the reaction is negative and almost visceral.

At least for the immediate future, I don't see a big movement from the 996 to a new Cayman.

In fact, I am going out on the limb here and say that the Cayman is a short term sales disappointment for Porsche. I believe MANY boxster owners do not want a coupe at all. I see very very few 911 owners moving downstream to a Cayman.

I could be wrong however, it is all speculation.

[Pilot2519j]

In fact, I am going out on the limb here and say that the Cayman is a short term sales disappointment for Porsche. I believe MANY boxster owners do not want a coupe at all. I see very very few 911 owners moving downstream to a Cayman.

I could be wrong however, it is all speculation. [/QUOTE]

Well addressed and to the point. The bread and butter is the 911 and that is ipso facto. The idea of the enthusiasts driving a Porsche seems to have died years ago as seen with their stratospherical prices. Of course most of us in the forum are the enthusiasts types but I would bet donuts to dollars that most of the 911 buyers are the elitist yuppies or the nouve riche that have to have it because it is the toy to have. I puke when I saw that Ralph Lauren has a car collection, even a 959, I bet that he has no idea of the history of the marque and of its racing heritage. For these individuals a Cayman as well as a Boxster means absolutedly nothing, almost a subchoice. This is the marketing strategy of Porsche. The 911 in clouds along with the Carrera GT. As a matter of fact the more expensive the shieker it becomes. I am very happy with my Boxster S and have no qualms that the 911 will outperform us but in a twisting road we will see who handles the beast better. As far as styling is concern our roadster is from the get go a roadster design not a chopped coupe as the cabriolet is. The shape of the cabriolet looks chopped egg. I also believe that the cabriolets vast majorities are sold with the tiptronics. Need I say more! almost brings to mind VP Agnew's quote about "effete corps of impudent snobs" but then there are those in the 911 group that are enthusiasts just like us and thoroughly enjoy their cars. I do believe that there is more snobs than enthusiasts. Last shot in this endless class struggle is to enjoy what you drive and the hell with the rest after all you are driving your own Porsche Boxster and they aren't.

[Brucelee]

You are right, in the end, they are all fine cars!

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by wombat7

Well... here we have the final answer as quoted from Excellence Magazine

“The ultimate measure of sports cars is Nürburgring lap times,” says Wahl. So how does the Cayman S stack up against the 997 Carrera? We put that question to Wolfgang Dürheimer. His response: “The Cayman S is eight seconds slower than the Carrera.” We’re confused, though, as Röhrl set a fast time of 7:59 in a Carrera S with 355 hp and the non-PASM Euro sport suspension — which would be only four seconds faster than the 8:03 lap time Dürheimer implies for the basic Carrera."

It seems that when put up against a basic 997 Carrera, the Cayman is only 4 seconds slower around the ring, but when put up against one with a Euro sport suspension, it is 8 seconds slower. I find this very interesting... 4 seconds is not a lot of time and for the $10K extra that you would pay for you basic C2, you could definately make the Cayman the superior car. Like I said this paves the way for the guys in Germany to put a 3.8 or 4.0 in an upcoming evolution of the car. Much like the Boxster S paved the way for the jump from 3.4 to 3.6 from 99 to 2000.

4 seconds for only $10,000 is a HUGE gain. I'd have to see if both cars had the same rubber.

[xavier405]

There's something I recall from the universitee about monopolies. Making money. Its either called the "controlled monopoly" or the "perfect monopoly". But it is where you have a large audience of buyers out there, and they all have different amounts of money they are willing to spend on a product.

You can make the most money if you get everybody to spend exactly the amount they can afford to spend. Ideally, you have the exactly the same product, say an Izod shirt. In the boutique, you sell the Izod shirt for $75, and the wealthy buy it. In the mall you sell the same shirt for $50, the average Joe buys it. In the discount store you sell it for $25, the bargain hunter buys it. This sales model will make tons of money, as tons of different people will buy it.

Porsche has the same opportunity with the Boxster, Cayman, and Carrera. those people who have $80,000 to spend on a Porsche will buy a Carrera. Those with $120,000 will buy a Turbo. Those with $50,000 will buy a Boxster.

Then you roll in the Certified pre-owned cars, and they increase the number of choices that the buyer has for a particular price point... making it all the more likely that they will find what they like at their price point!

Great job, Porsche! You did your economics homework! (AND your Physics, art, and engineering!)

[Brucelee]

This may be WHY they have the largest margins in the business!