Boxster S vs Air-cooled 911?

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

964s are great but...

The awd system on the 964 was maligned for the excessive understeer that it caused. It has also turned out to be somewhat trouble proned and expensive to repair. So much so that several owners even go to the effort of converting their cars to RWD. Joel Reiser wrote a very detailed 2 part article about this in panorama in 2007.

The 964 was also Porsche's biggest move up to that time to please the masses with increased weight (heavier than the 996 in fact), options, and standard power steering.

The 993 awd system returned the car's handling to more of the traditional oversteer bias and is much simpler, more reliable, and less expensive to maintain. Above that, the 993 had variable valve timing, modernized styling, a totally redesigned suspension, ect...

But in any case, the further you go back into years, the more fun these cars get.

The case for the AWD system became somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophesy. It was much maligned by reviewers when it 1st came out as being very un-porsche like, complex, heavy and certainly prone to trouble.

Then, when a few did fail, the naysayers shouted AHA!... SEE..?? The truth is that very few of these fail, and if they do, it's not often catastrophic, usually the accelerometers which govern the power distribution.

Now, if it does fail catastrophically, it is very expensive to fix... as is the AWD of virtually any other AWD car - MB, BMW, Volvo, Jaguar. This is inherent in essentially having two drivetrains.

It is rear wheel biased intentionally allowing only a 31/69 F/R power distribution. Understeer is prevelent of most cars of the era, but can easily be dialed out with some suspension changes. This is mostly a preference and most complaining have little or no seat time in the car, or are just letting their own bias speak. Very few 964 owners complain of either of these things and most 964 owners who have previously owned earlier 911s (incl. me) praise the car as an improvement.

Power Steering is a porsche 1st on the 964, but it works well and retains significant driver feedback. This car has zero torque steer, and the power steering may act to mitigate this.

But, I'm not trying to convince anyone. All things being equal, I would more likely have looked at a Carrera or an SC. But all things were not equal. This car is in pristine condition and for less money than an '01 Boxster S - about 3/4 the money of a similar Carrera or SC. I'm actually glad it worked out the way it did, because I too felt the bias of all the negative press the 964 received in it's 1st 15 yrs. IMHO, I think the car is nicer and more drivable than the earlier models. I would prefer the 993's powerplant for lower maintenance, but the styling of that car never appealed to me, not to mention that because it's the last of the air-cooleds, it has commanded a higher price than I think it deserves.

I do agree with you that the fun quotient rises going back through previous generations, but creature comforts and daily driving ability are lessened. Good for me because I don't use it as a DD nor do I expect it to have the creature comforts I would demand in a car I regularly drive. This is a sports car and I have never expected it to be appointed like a Rolls, S-Class or 7 Series car.

Cheers!

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

The case for the AWD system became somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophesy. It was much maligned by reviewers when it 1st came out as being very un-porsche like, complex, heavy and certainly prone to trouble.

Then, when a few did fail, the naysayers shouted AHA!... SEE..?? The truth is that very few of these fail, and if they do, it's not often catastrophic, usually the accelerometers which govern the power distribution.

Now, if it does fail catastrophically, it is very expensive to fix... as is the AWD of virtually any other AWD car - MB, BMW, Volvo, Jaguar. This is inherent in essentially having two drivetrains.

It is rear wheel biased intentionally allowing only a 31/69 F/R power distribution. Understeer is prevelent of most cars of the era, but can easily be dialed out with some suspension changes. This is mostly a preference and most complaining have little or no seat time in the car, or are just letting their own bias speak. Very few 964 owners complain of either of these things and most 964 owners who have previously owned earlier 911s (incl. me) praise the car as an improvement.

Power Steering is a porsche 1st on the 964, but it works well and retains significant driver feedback. This car has zero torque steer, and the power steering may act to mitigate this.

But, I'm not trying to convince anyone. All things being equal, I would more likely have looked at a Carrera or an SC. But all things were not equal. This car is in pristine condition and for less money than an '01 Boxster S - about 3/4 the money of a similar Carrera or SC. I'm actually glad it worked out the way it did, because I too felt the bias of all the negative press the 964 received in it's 1st 15 yrs. IMHO, I think the car is nicer and more drivable than the earlier models. I would prefer the 993's powerplant for lower maintenance, but the styling of that car never appealed to me, not to mention that because it's the last of the air-cooleds, it has commanded a higher price than I think it deserves.

I do agree with you that the fun quotient rises going back through previous generations, but creature comforts and daily driving ability are lessened. Good for me because I don't use it as a DD nor do I expect it to have the creature comforts I would demand in a car I regularly drive. This is a sports car and I have never expected it to be appointed like a Rolls, S-Class or 7 Series car.

Cheers!

AWD cars don't suffer from torque steer, even when it's a 50/50 split system. It's a FWD phenomenon. I understand that you need the Bosch computer system to bleed the brakes in the 964 C4.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

AWD cars don't suffer from torque steer, even when it's a 50/50 split system. It's a FWD phenomenon. I understand that you need the Bosch computer system to bleed the brakes in the 964 C4.

Well, you do need the Bosch 'hammer' to actuate the AWD valves, or something similar. I have a mechanic friend who has a smart phone app that will do the same thing.

But you can actually just bleed the brakes and clutch alone using just a pressure bleeder, if done properly.

There is also a workaround by jumping a couple of connectors which will open the valves.

But, this isn't too unusual... lots of cars today w/ ABS cannot be properly bled without actuating the ABS valves from an outside source. Jaguars and BMWs for instance, even the later Boxsters from my understanding.

The hydraulic system is more complex than many cars, but much less so than some others, such as Citroens or some MBs and Maybachs - the old Mercedes 600 used hydraulics for everything, incl. the power windows - waay more complex than anything on the 964.

Cheers!

[Flavor 987S]

Having both a 2006 Boxster S and a 1997 993 Twin Turbo I can tell you the cars are Worlds apart in some areas and very similar in others. Both are stunning and very enjoyable to own and drive. Best of both worlds. That's why I have both.

[stephen wilson]

This which is better, debate always seems to come up, and IMO it's fairly pointless, unless you just enjoy the banter. It's entirely personal preference. To use the Mustang example, some love the 60's cars (me), and some love the modern version, there is no right or wrong. Sorry for the side-track, carry on!

[maj75]

That's why I did not ask which one is "better." I was looking for perspective from a Boxster Board members as to whether I was crazy to want a 911sc over the Boxster S I own, given that I would drive it 100 miles a day in South Florida heat. I am looking for different opinion and thanks for the opinions posted so far

[mts]

Originally Posted by maj75

That's why I did not ask which one is "better." I was looking for perspective from a Boxster Board members as to whether I was crazy to want a 911sc over the Boxster S I own, given that I would drive it 100 miles a day in South Florida heat. I am looking for different opinion and thanks for the opinions posted so far

Having just sold a nice Boxster S in favor of an air cooled 911, I would hands down take the Boxster S given your circumstances. I just don't see the 911 being as good in the South Florida heat. The only area I can think of where the 911 wins given your situation is if you are a tall person and are a little cramped in the Boxster. If that's the case, the extra leg room on the 911 could be a big deal given that much driving. Otherwise keep the Boxster S.

My 1/2 cent.

[Chuck W.]

Great comments. I have both a Boxster and 993. They are very different cars and both very good. IMHO, the Boxster is a better daily driver.

[ovrTHhill]

Came late to this party. To have a cool A/C in an SC, I highly recommend converting the York compressor to a modern rotary compressor. Next, add a radiator to the front oil cooler trombone, or rather, toss the trombone and install a full radiator with a supplemental cooling fan that operates when the A/C is operational. These little things make a big difference. Also, R-12 is a more efficient refrigerant than what is required by the EPA change to a more Ozone friendly material. A properly maintained 911SC is a thing of beauty. As for the quip about the timing chain rails and the pressure valve that keeps them taught, well, my experience is that that beautiful wine comes from the chains rolling across the rails. Our 80 911SC has been in the family for the past 26 years and is the least expensive vehicle we have ever owned. The pleasures in owning a 911 are in the eyes/ears of the beholder. Find your passion and let the rest have theirs.