Flat 6 Innovations saved my motor
 

I want to say thanks to Jake Raby from Flat 6 Innovations and Charles Navarro at LN Engineering for taking the time to develop the IMS retrofit for our Boxsters.
Their efforts led to my engine being saved from certain failure.

I decided to take my 2000 Boxster S to Jake to have the IMS retrofit performed. There were no symptoms of any kind that I was having IMS issues, I just wanted a little peace of mind. When the IMS was pulled, Jake found that it was already in failure mode and would have soon caused the complete failure of my motor.

It's been a pleasure working with Jake and his staff. You won't find a more dedicated and professional group of people.

What signs put your IMS in 'failure mode'?
I was not aware of any warning signs before an IMS failure, if there is something owners can check for, it would be a great way to avoid IMS induced engine failure.

Looks like he said there were no symptoms prior to IMS replacement. Only after pulling it did they see that it was already failing.

I wonder what it looks like in my car. I think I'm going to have it done this year.

It's the common engine failure on 2.5L right?

Just so I don't need to worry, mine is 2.7L from 2002.

Kim

No, the common failure on the 2.5 is the slipped sleeve issue. Your car, like mine, is supseptible to the IMS problem that he speaks of. Whether it happens or not, who knows.

All M96 engines are susceptible to IMS failures, but this is not a common experience.

Go to www.flat6innovations.com and www.lnengineering.com to read about the IMS and the retrofits...Jake and Charles have invested considerable time and money into solutions to Porsche's cost cutting issues.

We applaud them for their expertise and contribution to the Porsche community.

I just finished my 90 mile test drive on tommy986's Boxster and after one more dyno session he'll be dropping by to pick the car up..

What we experienced with his Boxster was something I have never seen before. When the IMS bearing flange was pulled, immediately the aroma of scorched oil was present and thats something I have never seen from an engine that wasn't already compromised from the failure.

The IMS bearing was in the very beginning stages of failure and had recently been compromised, filling the IMS tube with fresh engine oil. The permanent lubricant used in the IMS bearing had been scorched and released into the area within the inner race of the IMS flange and thats what smelled so horrible.

The IMS flange that supports the inner race of the IMS bearing was nasty black and clearly shown signs of metal transfer from the inner race that from time to time had been spinning on the flange as the bearing was beginning to seize. This is the first sign of a bearing beginning to fail! When the inner race begins to spin against the flange it isn't long before it is "welded" into place and the big boom happens.

Tommy drove to my facility from several hundred miles away and was staying just a few miles up the road. I called him as soon as the bearing was extracted, before it had even been cleaned up to come witness first hand what was going on. He saw it and smelled it first hand.

When we did our "Pre IMS procedure Dyno evaluation" Tommy's car was down on power, only making around 212HP from a Boxster S when the numbers should be 220-225 at minimum. I have the car strapped down on the dyno now for it's "post IMS procedure dyno evaluation" and it'll be interesting to see if the car makes more power with no other changes. This will illustrate just how close to the edge of failure Tommy's engine was. This is why we always perform pre and post IMS dyno evaluations.

This bearing and the way it was failing will provide very beneficial data for our program.

Tommy stated the car was making a slight knocking sound at idle after being ran hard and now that sound is gone... That may have been the IMS, its hard to tell. This is further proof that the IMS failure can strike without an IMS bearing leak or any other symptom. Tick. Tick. BOOM!

Jake,

Do you have a satelite location in Kansas? I thought I heard that you did because it would be a shorter ride from OKC for my IMS retrofit.

Nope.. Just one location.
Tommy is on the way home with the car now, he sure was appreciative of what we saved him!

Can you remind me of the cost? Bob

He saved my car as well. I was not as close to death as yours, but now I can drive it with out waiting for the hammer to fall.


Extended warrenty even payed for it.

I had Musante Motorsports in CT put the bearing in mine. At 87k it was still in okay shape with just the early signs of play but possibly would have given out in another 10-15k perhaps. Now I don't worry about it and tell other folks to get theirs done with their clutch job!

For the procedure to be carried out at our facility the charges total 3,500.00 as a flat rate, no matter how simple or difficult your particular extraction may be for 6 speed cars. Tiptronic cars vary rate wise.

This includes:
- Pre- procedure chassis dyno evaluation
- IMS Bearing retrofit kit with installation
- Updated OE RMS with installation
- Full OE Clutch kit with release bearing, clutch disc and pressure plate
- Engine Oil service with 110.00 credit toward engine oil of the customer's choice.
- Post- procedure Chassis Dyno evaluation
- FSI door decal stating the serial number of the bearing retrofitted for proof the procedure has been carried out. We also log each engine number and VIN in our database
- Post procedure test drive, usually 80-100 miles to ensure no leaks are present and that the engine performs as expected. (I do these personally)

In some instances the work can be done cheaper by other shops, but others charge more because they hit "problems". We don't do this because we mutually developed this procedure with LN Engineering and know it better than anyone.

We keep it simple with one flat rate charge, of course we can apply more updates while we have your car on premises and there are a few options we are adding as more flat rate services, like lifter updates, variocam wear component replacement, timing chain replacement and tensioner replacements.

The cheapest I have seen a shop do this work was 2,000.00 but that didn't include a new clutch kit. I will not do this procedure without replacing the clutch arrangement because they are all worn out or very close. In all of 2009 we didn't pull a single clutch that was acceptable to reuse.

wow, that pricing isn't bad at all for what you get. It's much cheaper than engine replacement.

I expected the first response to be "Damn thats expensive!"

I agree it's a good price. Here in Toronto I have an estimate of $1400 just for the RMS. I have already messaged Jake that when I'm ready to do it I will bring my car to him. For 3500 (right now the Canadian dollar is almost at Par as the US) I get the RMS, IMS retrofit and a new clutch. With Jake I know that when I get my car back there is no doubt that the job was done correctly. That's more than I can say for the dealers.

My Car is 2000 Boxster S (Speed Yellow) in Mint condition with 34,000 Km which worries me as it's low mileage for older vehicle. I bought the car last spring with my eyes open knowing about all the potential issues and with a slight RMS leak.

No regrets so far. Love the car! Big difference than driving my Mint 1990 Crx Si. :)

Its not smart to disassemble the drive train to remove the update the RMS or clutch without doing the IMS and clutch.. The same goes with the clutch, its not smart to replace the clutch assembly without updating the IMS and RMS since all the components are accessible easily while the tranny is pulled.

Thats why we do all the updates at once...

Jake,

You said " Tiptronic cars vary rate wise" do you mean cheaper? Without having to replace the clutch, pressure plate and throw-out bearing ($$$) and the tip having the addition of a couple of coolant lines I figure it would have to be cheaper.

Everything is more complicated with a tip.. Pulling the tranny is more difficult and while it's out the fluid should be changed if it has any decent mileage on the car.

Due to this the charges associated with a tip are very similar to that of a manual, tiptronic fluid isn't cheap and the added labor adds up to costs that can exceed that of a manual (at least when going all the way with a comprehensive service)

Flat 6
 

A big +1 to the first message in this thread. My experience with Jake and staff was and continues to be first rate.

Thanks again Guys!

Lon

PS, if anyone wants to PM me with questions on their capabilities, feel free!

Ltusler had a really big problem when he came my way....

A two piece crankshaft in his 996 engine....

After we were finished he had 340 RWHP without a Turbo from 3.8 liters that started as 3.6 liters :-)

lol, i'm an optimist. while i don't have that kind of cabbage to throw into my boxster at teh moment, i see the value of the service performed. Some people go with the lowest price and some pay more b/c they know the job will get done right. .
There are certain things i pay more for and this would be one of em.



When you break it down, most would pay anywhere from 1500-2k for clutch and rms with parts included. I would assume most ims updates would require a bit more work and time involved so 500-1k.

So the normal total cost at some indies would be 2-3k, and for peace of mind 3500 is worth it to pretty much guarantee preventing ims failure.

+1

I recommend Charles' oil test kit so that our oil analysis goes to further their research and to get some peace of mind. Price discounted when you buy oil there as I do.

Jake might have the same one.

I'd say that's a very comfortable price. It's one that I wouldn't drag my feet over.

:cheers:

Just curious... What's the price to do the IMS Upgrade as opposed to the IMS Retrofit?

Here you are again, questioning everything Jake does. What have you contributed to the development of anything Porsche? What are you trying to accomplish? Stop being a douche

Bump to possibly get my question answered, since otherwise it's likely to get lost in the Troll Chow. :rolleyes:

http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html

The prices are at the bottom of the page.
$895 = Upgrade
$519-$595 = Retrofit

If its labor your talking about, then the Retrofit should cost you an additional 2-3 hours on top of a clutch job. Depending on what the hourly rate is in your area I would say maybe an additional $200-$300. If it is a double row bearing, it may take a bit longer because they can be harder to remove. The Upgrade requires the engine be completely disassembled so I don't really know a dollar amount. You probably do not want to go that route unless you have another reason to disassemble the engine.

Maybe try and focus on helping people and answering questions on this forum rather than bashing everything everyone does.

If you are suggesting that believing what Jake does and says is cultish. Then so be it. He has put more time into development of the M96 then anyone. When your Boxster has a problem, don't come here and ask for help.

Thanks, but I'm trying to ask Jake what HIS flat rate is for the upgrade (if he has one).

I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing, however I see nothing wrong with asking for a third party opinion vs. blindly accepting what you are told by one person (no matter who it is). Some people are more skeptical and/or less trusting than others, and there is nothing wrong with that. What this forum doesn't need is people that get upset and call each other names.

The flat rate quoted above is for the IMS RETROFIT. I'm asking if Jake has a flat fee for the IMS UPGRADE. Two entirely different products, two entirely different installation procedures.

And no, I don't think I should use his BUSINESS site to ask him this question. I'm specifically asking it here because I'm relatively certain that I'm not the only one here who wants to know.

If you're not interested, you're free to leave at any time. (Or at least stop posting in this thread. :cheers: )

Ha ha, sorry. I didn't realize it was a question for Jake. My bad.

It's a good question though. cheers! :cheers:

No, it was my error. I wasn't clear in my original post. Sorry for the confusion. :cheers:

I agree that a third party opinion is always a good thing, but I am sure Jake did not blindly say that the bearing was on its way out and didn't back it up by showing his customer why. I wasn't there so I am just speculating, that's just my guess.

Also I do agree with you that this is not a place to call each other names. For that, I do apologize. It is counterproductive.

Yep.. That would be the owner of the car. He was here, he saw the bearing when it was extracted and he smelled the stench of the shop that was a result of the torched lubricant from the bearing. He put the bearing in his hand, it didn't take a rocket scientist to see that the bearing had failed and was caught just before the big boom.

On top of that, the bearing is in a bin with about 40 others, bagged and tagged with the owners name, mileage, engine size and serial number of the bearing that replaced it. When I get about 10 more of these the whole batch will go to an "independent 3rd party" for observation.

When any bearing is pulled from an engine and the smell fills a 7,000 square foot facility to the point where office workers over 100' away note it, even a blind man could tell that the unit was toast.

Note that the OP was my customer, he has been so pleased with our effectiveness and business practices to send several others our way. Coincidentally one of those people just called to schedule his IMSR procedure last week, he'll be driving several hours to get here..


The better question is why do you care? It obviously turned into this because my client was impressed with what we did for him enough to share that with others. Those "others" shared his feelings enough to make their posts and make the thread grow and one person even asked how much it cost... Only after the question was raised did I mention the cost, because it was a QUESTION.

Seems that you don't like much about this site and the people that frequent the site don't care much for you and your nameless identity.

Keep taking stabs at me, every time you bring some crap up the phone rings even more and the emails really roll in... I'll say that the people really love you, I get some really humorous comments!

Talk about a stimulus, maybe you should run for office, Barak could use a right hand man as effective as you. Keep making the reading provocative and dramatic, people really love a story full of drama!

Thanks!

Hi Jake,

I just took possession of a '99 Boxster 5-speed with 56k miles on it. Was owned by my father since it had around 25k on it, back in ~2003.

Anyway, my engine sounds fine. Clutch grabs well. And I have no idea if this is the original engine or if it was ever taken apart in the original 25k miles.

I will try to do the clutch job myself when the time comes...and then the IMS stuff and associated good things to do at the same time.

My question is: What's the condition of the DM flywheels you see on all the boxsters you are doing? Sounds like most of them appear fine, even after 80-90k miles, since you aren't replacing them as part of oyur package.

How many threads has Jake started since he joined this forum? I count 12, of which 2 were simply "parts for sale" posts.

The vast majority of his posts appear to me to be responses to questions posed by forum members who know that they will get a helpful response from him. How many questions like that have you gotten from forum members here? ;)

Incidentally, I'm dropping off my car at his shop on Friday (it will be a 9-hour drive for me, but I'm looking forward to it anyway), so I'll be able to report back with firsthand information (as opposed to snarky innuendo) as to how busy he is. :cheers:

We'll see you on Friday.. Dean will be in touch this afternoon with a phone call.

To my old buddy,
Actually I am busy, very busy.. There are certain days that find me in my office all day, or in the dyno cell waiting for an engine to cool down. Today I am doing some welding and waiting for the parts to post cool before the next process, so I have a few minutes on my hands.. I have 13 computer stations in my facility, I can have fun with you from just about anywhere :-)

I swear, sometimes internet trolling is so funny it hurts to watch it unfold. :matchup:

Jake, while I may not currently have the financial means to go about your retrofit (unless you offer military discounts :D ), I'm pretty convinced it'll be money well spend at 1/4th the cost of a full rebuild, nevermind we're talking about other new parts and an oil change to boot, and I'd make the good 20+ hour drive down to GA from CT for it after reading some satisfied customers' responses once I do have the funding. I find your taking time out of your work to come on here and be helpful to others obviously to be beneficial, as it has been to me, rather than seeing it as you figuratively putting your feet up on the clamshell of a customer's 986/7 and typing away while you sip your coffee, as some seem to try and make it out to be. If it were just forum members chatting it up, I wouldn't be as convinced, but here you are backing up your work and being pretty frank about it. As far as I'm concerned, that's where one's credibility shines, and you've earned a shameless plug here and there, which you haven't even bothered to do. There's no need as you've got satisfied customers plugging for you all day.

Hopefully I'll be making an appointment with you one of these days, and even more hopefully my engine won't start going south prior to my actually driving it south to your facility.

As for your forum nemesis, feel free to borrow a little quote from a musician I know of that seems to ring true here: "Haters make me famous." ;)