Fuel these days...
 

So yesterday, I went to my favorite gas station in Champaign and found that they had changed the formula of the gas provided to the gas station. They now had posted on every pump that their gas contained 10% ethanol AND a new STP additive. Maybe I am ignorant to the new ways, but can't we buy normal unihibited gas anymore. This stuff is dilluted crap..

I filled up with a similar gas a couple of weeks ago while I was in Chicago, with our FJ, and within 50 miles it sputtered and the gas milage dropped tremendously. Yesterday I filled up at another gas station, out of town a bit, without all the advertisements, and the fj was back to normal.

Is this what we must look forward to in the future, No gas, just additives!!

Simply had to vent, thanks.. :dance:

I hear you. Sometimes these formulas are change via compliance with emissions laws. In CA, the law mandates a switch in the summer.

Then, in winter, back again.

:confused:

All gasoline has additives. Detergents, anti-gel and stabilizers. Without them gas doesn't last long and your engine becomes a big carbon block. The oxygenators aren't necessary but they're almost always there too.

If you want "gasoline," try race fuels or avgas (unfortunately, avgas is highly leaded). The crap that they call "gas" that goes in your street car is highly diluted and filled with who knows what. Formulations differ from company to company, state to state, and season to season.

I try to use the following site(click on retailer) as a general idea what gas isn't crap, but in my small area I am lucky to find a Shell station and Chevron is out of the question. :mad:
http://www.toptiergas.com/index.html

" but in my small area I am lucky to find a Shell station and Chevron is out of the question"

Me too, we only have a Chevron, but it is a small, old facility with low volume. We do have a new Sheetz which I am thinking of switching to. They are supposed to have high-quality fuel storage and delivery systems, but I am not sure about their fuel, as they are not listed as toptier. Anyone have experience with their fuel?

Ed

:)

I run a 9:1 mix of race fuel just because I kinda have to, can't afford any extra heat. We don't even have 93 cot here. I like to use chevron. Techronn is pretty legit harmless detergent. 20 odd years a ago I got a bum tank of gas from a no-name station. All it did was smell so stong and bad I discovered a leaking fuel line (good idea for leaky fuel finder...some sort of skunk additive).

Turn the question around, anybody had a big problem with less than fresh "High quality" fuel?

PK

Our Sunoco 94 oct also contains 10% ethanol. Lots of local Pcar guys switched to Shell 91 oct and they notice better gas mileage right off.

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_additive

You thought oil was a complicated mixture!

I noticed a drop in MPG when I was using "Clark" station's fuel ( I am guessing their ethanol mix is higher). Nothing bad with performance though, just a drop in mpg. I switched back to shell and the mpg is back up 3 to 5 mpg. Bad part is, my Shell station is in a very small town and is always .10 to .15 higher.

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I noticed "toluene" on the list as an anti knock additive. Never had a knock but that's just because the timing will be automatically retarded, but that will effect performance. I use Toluene in a pinch to up the octane, It has debatable burn characteristics but it is cooler.

That's strange the higher oct. gives worse mileage. Here in CA we get to set the standards for some 12 other states(sorry) (instead of looser fed standards). I thought we oxygenated with alcohol everything, 87-91 oct. No escape. It use to be just a summertime thing but I think it's year around now.

Is performance wonder how much performance is effected with 91 oct.

Regards, PK

For anyone unfamiliar, octane rating is a measurement of the energy it takes to start a gasoline to burn, the energy content is the amount of energy that will be released when it does burn. There's no direct correlation between the two.

Different refiners use different mixtures to increase a fuel's octane rating some of these additives have higher energy contents than others. But in general, the additives they use to increase the octane rating has a lower energy content than the gasoline itself. This is what typically leads to the lower fuel economy.

This from The Baltimore Sun last week ... a sign of the times ...

Excess Ethanol Blamed in Breakdown of Police Cars

City officials say an unusually high concentration of ethanol in the city's gasoline supply contributed to the breakdown of more than 70 police cars over the weekend, most of which had been repaired and returned to service Tuesday.

More than 200 police cars fueled up at a 24-hour, city-run gas pump by the Fallsway before cars started showing problems, and nearly one-third of the Police Department's patrol contingent was sidelined with engine trouble.

Police doubled up in cars before activating a reserve and shifting administrative vehicles into service.

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Where I live in Michigan I can not get ethanol-free gas. And given the investment in ethanol that oil companies have made in the past year, it's hard to imagine that the 90/10 mix won't be the rule further afield in the next few years.

It will be interesting to see if there is a large enough market for one of the major oil companies to sell a premium Sports Car fuel (100% gas).

My strategy at this point is to simply stick with the major brands (Shell, BP, Chevron, Sunoco) and the highest Octane I can get locate.

It's possible here to find gasoline that doesn't have ethanol. They usually have a large sign outside that says, "100% gasoline sold here". A few stations here also have both. Although it does cost more for pure gasoline, I've noticed a change of about 5mpg switching between them.

I asked my mechanic a while back if there were any adverse effects to using ethanol fuel and he told me that over time it will etch the inside of the tank and send metal shavings through the fuel system. There happened to be an older Porsche there that they were flushing the lines and changing the fuel filter. I was skeptical to his claims until he showed me the fuel filter and to my surprise there were metal shavings. They also showed me the waste bucket from flushing the lines and there were little metal shavings all over the bottom of the bucket.

I can't think of anything else that would cause such a thing. I've since switched to using pure gasoline.

I asked the mechanic (at the dealership I ran) the difference between an ethanol and gas vehicle. He told me that the ethanol car had a different lined tank, fuel lines and special gaskets as the ethanol was more corrosive than gas and would eat through normal lined parts. I know its only 10% mix(in most cases) but as the rest have said it can damage your car over time.

Ethanol is a solvent and will react with some plastics. Cars made in the 70s and before weren't designed with ethanol in mind and so it's use may cause damage to fuel lines and seals. It also absorbs moisture more easily, so if it sits in a gas tank for a long time, it can encourage the formation of rust.

All modern cars are designed with ethanol-safe materials. There's no risk of damage to your Boxster directly related to using 10% ethanol in your gasoline. It will lower gas mileage, though, due to it's lower energy content.

Only a car that states e85 ready or flex fuel is truly compatible with ethanol. As stated before cars(even 2000 model cars) are not fully able to run ethanol over a certain %.
Ethanol is a hoax perpatrated by our politicians to get the midwest vote. It is less fuel effecient and if you actually take the amount of water and energy to make ethanol, you are better off with gas only. The amount of polution given off to make ethanol is much greater than the savings it claims as burning cleaner than gas..

All cars from about 1985+ are compatible with 10% ethanol. Only cars designed for E85 have ignition and fueling systems able to recognize and operate the engine on E85.

I like to keep out of political conversations, everyone's right and there's never a resolution. :)

Blue200s,
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Nailed, got me. So whats your take on %100 octane unleaded race fuel? Fortified with "Red-Bull" & "thunderbird" " or something of substance?

And as far as additives go, where does toulene rank? whats better?
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So has no one figured out who blends the best stuff together? Also, if there adding bad cholesterol (additives) to make it 93, whats to keep them from adding bad cholesterol to 87 oct to make 91?

PK

I don't know exactly what's in Race Fuels like Sunco that makes them different, but I'd guess it's probably got alot less of the additives that are in normal gas. The higher percentage of fuel allows it to have more energy content. It also keeps it from cleaning your engine and shortens it's shelf life.

If all else were equal, there's no point in buying a gas for a higher octane rating than 93 (or 91 for us at higher altitude). Porsche's set the compression, ignition and valve timing to work most efficiently at 93 octane. Using a fuel with a higher octane rating doesn't gain anything. Having said that, if a race fuel has more energy content, you will get more torque from the engine. You will also increase stresses on components and increase the temperature of the engine and cooling system.

The additives in a particular gasoline are what make up the different grades/octanes. BP, for example, starts with the same base and adds different things to it to make it low, mid, or high grade. In fact, mid grade is a 50/50 mixture of low and high grade often mixed at the pump.

wow, we officially do not have a single one of those gas stations here in champaign/urbana. I just do not know what to say, our gas sucks... But being in the mid west we have good dirt and corn. Maybe thats why we have so much ethanol!

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I have forced induction and a piggyback AIC (or call it a DME-lite) that leaves whatever Porches intent was as far as induction & ignition goes, somewhere back along the road.

Your right I suppose that more energy might create more heat but, a blower adds alot more though, an easy 125+ degrees to the intake temp. The hotter the charge the more it is likely to detonate.. Knock sensors will solve that by retarding the timing but, start Kissing performance away to.

The setup as designed is really pushing the limit on 93 octane (probably pre ethanol 93). We only have 91 oct. (except for 2 or 3 places across town) So, just to get it to that minimal 93, I have to brew my own from 91 and 100. I can't pretend to notice the dif between 93 or 91. I've been leed to beleive higher octane it a cooler burn. Keeping my piston from burning (they can) is my only concern. This thread complicates things a bit.

PK

I just came back from Des Moines and noticed that the national oil companies seem totally absent.

They had grades like Hy-Vy and the like. One assumes they buy there gas from someone else.

Yikes! :eek:

Oh Hy-Vy rules, 8 essential vytamines and minerals in every tank.

To Blue200os's point, BP mixing the brew at the tanker/station, i think I've heard they all do that. They probably service the generics the same way. I was going to say hy-vy is not exactly prominent on the NYSE. Couldn't help but google it and it wasn't there either. ...very scary Bruce.

PK

Adding a forced induction system to a high compression engine will certainly require an increase in octane rating in the fuel you use for safety. Compression pressure is higher, mixture temp is higher, cylinder temps are higher, the potential for hot pieces of residual carbon setting off the mixture prematurely is higher. Everything is there to allow for an unintended ignition. You would want the increase in octane to resist the chances. Actually, it's popular within the tuners of turbo engines to use E85 (speaking of E85) because it's octane rating is very high, which allows for high boost levels beyond what you can do on pump gas.

Here's the official/unofficial word from a Porsche engineer on non-premium fuels (USA Today, 2003)


... All Porsche engines are designed for premium, but it's not available everywhere. "Our cars must be able to drive all over the world, and so we are able to run on regular," says Jakob Neusser, director of powertrain development at Porsche's research and development center in Weissach, Germany. "You don't have to feel that a mechanical problem or anything else will happen" using standard octane gas, even in the highest-performance, regular-production Porsches.

Yup, that's typical of all manufacturers. Most cars today are equipped with knock sensors that can retard spark timing to protect the engine from damage if the gasoline isn't of expected octane rating. There's a power penalty and some argue that the lower octane fuels don't clean the engine as well because of the formulation.

Has anybody tried regular or even midgrade? I will stick to high grade until I can do some more research on the subject.

Also: Anybody have any input on mobil gas? I found a UDF (united dairy farmer) gas station and it's tanks are labled MOBIL.

We keep a drum of race fuel at the shop for a customer who drives a 700 HP 964 Turbo we built. Even he could probably get by on premium pump fuel in it's current tune, but there's certainly nothing to be gained by running a higher octane than what is needed.

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All very true. Pistons can come to look like Swiss cheese fondue on a connecting rod to.
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So what you seem to be saying is rating (burn starter energy), by whatever means (ethanol, whatever), is more important and the actual energy content doesn't matter much with a blower. In fact, the rational for the 91 oct. sects belief system is opposite to that which you are suggesting for this app.

Interesting about e-gas. I've not seen it...but I haven't looked either. What is it likely to dissolve?

Regards, PK

Apparently, high boost and more fuel more than makes up for the difference in energy content.

I used to get gas at a Sam's Club by my wife's work but they finally went with the 10% ethanol blended gas. I started to keep track of the type of gas I was using when my gas mileage started decreasing. The 10% ethanol gas reduced my mileage by almost 10% compared to straight gas and I found that others had discovered this also. I found this was the same with my motorcycles and one the bikes started acting up when cold, which it never had previously. What I don't really understand is, why the gas with ethanol costs the same as the gas without.

There is a Tri-Par station on the way to Elkhart Lake WI (Road America) that I frequent every trip from northern Illinois in one of the P cars...around town it's Shell V-Power. The Box S likes it as does the '73 with carbs.

Thanks for the link...good stuff to know.

fuel
 

I got my 2004 Box last May and since that time have put on 22000 km. I have kept track of every single fill up. Normally here in Winnipeg I use Co-op gas because in Feb they send you a rebate cheque which last year I beleive was for approx $.16 a litre. Anyway, where I am going with this is I recently did a 5500 km road trip over two weeks and I noticed when using Shell I got at least 10% more range (10% less fuel burn) on a tank. I used Sunoco 94 in Ontario where there iss no ethenol in the hi-test and got just as good if not better - the Sunoco was hard to find. Soon as I got back to Winnipeg back to the Co-op gas and my range on a tank dropped 10%. Interesting. Maybe it isn't such a deal.

On another road trip last winter I took my Acura TSX and in one state (WI?) there is ethenol in hi-test and my range dropped 10-15% and picked back up again after I was able to get fuel without ethenol.

My thoughts are that ethenol is crap. If polutants released into the air is a product of volume burned these days then with ethenol you are putting 10 - 15% more into the atmosphere and increasing your fuel costs by a similar amount. No saving anywhere that I can see.

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Patience must be running dry but, my options now that I know of for 93 oct (what the cblower was set up for) are

100 oct race fuel ------------------------------------------------$5-6 per gal

114 oct. toulene (already about 15% in pump fuel)------$20/gallon

115 (?) ethanol---------------------------------------------------$10/gallon

Bang for buck aside, I wonder what is easiest on the motor. And, what exactly is susceptible to deterioration with ethanol.

Regards, PK

E100 is about 113 octane. If your goal is to hit 93 octane, using 22/78 race/pump gas your cost is at about 3.70/gal if you assume pump 91 is 3.00/gal.

9/91 toulene/pump is 4.50/gal

9/91 E100/pump is about 3.63/gal

This is just to get you to a safe octane rating. As we noted before, race gas will have more energy content than E100, so you'll make more power (and wear) on the race gas.

Champaign urban? I live in Urban in Champaign county. Who would have thunk it. :cheers: It might take a little leg work to find a station w/out Ethanol. I am still looking and the station attendants aren't too helpful either.

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Thanks as always BLUE200OS,

Nice of you doing the arithmetic, I flunked that class. Pretty much my how I've been running it the majority of the time (8:2 piump). I usually wind up using toluene in pinch. It's a lot easier to find, in most hardware stores, than race fuel.

Ive got a custom made h2o/methanol injection sittimg on a shelf. Sure to relieve any angst with an effective octane well over 100 oct. on any grade pf fuel(from what I understand). Dont quite understand it but, Ive heard of people claiming the equivalent.118 on a 50/50 meth h20 mix, a little less with straight h20.

Regards. PK

Does it make any sense to put in a gallon or two of race fuel with with every tank of high test? I have also noted that my mileage goes down (and maybe performance, hard to tell) with ethanol in the mix. BTW, I did a couple of dyno runs with my 2.7L and picked up a few HP running straight race fuel, that was an expensive, but fun experiement....

Ed

:D

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Well, you still have the same amount of ethanol which was what this thread was about, and for reasons I forget, till I hijacked. But good question, according to blue-s the ethanol just helps at detonation, race fuel should pack the rest of the energy on down the the hole, which ethanol won't...

On the other hand, why bother, your car shouldn't be noticeably faster with anything over 93 high test. 91oct and 2 gallons of 1000 should give every thin the alcohol dose plus the added punch...be like real 83 oct.

pk
PK