Yes please note that my car is wearing less than most. Will you at least admit that most Porsches are not driven like mine, and they, based on this report are wearing more?

I assume you will say this is not evidence either.

I can't see your UOI because photobucket is blocked from this computer. But I'm guessing your wear was below the universal averages. That's great, but mine was a decent amount above the universal averages with a 10,000 mile interval, which is why I backed off to 8,000 miles. I'd venture to say I use my car harder than most as well.

There is no need to debate anything here. You need to change oil consistent with how you feel about the issue, cost-benefit trade off etc.

From my point of view, it makes little or no sense to run any oil more than 7500 miles in an engine as expensive or fragile as a Box 6. That is simply my point of view, based on how I assess risk and reward.

If you are comfy running your oil beyond that, that is fine. Your money, your car.

It is all good.

I should point out that each car is different. We have seen UOA on BITOG that suggests that M1 is gone by 7500 miles. So, in those cases, it would not be wise to try to extend.

But, a few cases carries no statistical weight so, who knows. I wonder, would you run your car to 20K on any oil? I wouldn't.

As Bruce says, there is great variation between these individual engines.

Not only that, but you're making your case on an assumed linearity of the results, which is probably not the case.

Your oil may look fine at 11k, and be all in by say 13k (or any mileage really).

You'd have to sample the oil at regular intervals to be certain, and even then because the hrs. on the engine increase thru the testing, it could be the asociated wear and not the oil which is causing the effect.

Don't worry... be Happy! If you're not worried going 11k+ on your oil, that's great! I don't think I'd share the same feeling for my car.

Good post. Moreover, the cost of testing could be put towards the cost of fresh oil!

:D

hey, if we take up a collection to foot the costs, I'll be the guinea pig and submit my oil for testing.....

I had it changed at 19K miles and would be willing to do the next change at 30K as opposed to 40K....

otherwise I'll wait till 40K and not test it and sleep in peace :D

Polyol esters
 

Interesting stuff. This is the base stock of Red Line Oils, which is why I prefer them.








In our family of polyol ester, you find high purity dipentaerythritol, pentaerythritol and trimethylolpropane esters for use in applications where thermal stability, high viscosity index and lubricity are essential. Typical usages include raw material for spin finishers and oiling agents, lubricants, lubricating oil, and as jet engine lubricants.


The term "polyol esters" is short for neopentyl polyol esters which are made by reacting monobasic fatty acids with polyhedric alcohols having a "neopentyl" structure. The unique feature of the neopentyl structure of polyol alcohols molecules is the fact that there are no hydrogens on the beta-carbon. As a result, polyol esters usually have added polarity, reduced volatility and enhanced lubricity characteristics. This makes polyol esters ideally suited for the higher temperature applications where the performance of diesters and PAOs may fade.

Hatco uses many different acids and alcohols for manufacturing polyol esters and an even greater number of permutations are possible due to the multiple ester linkages. The difference in ester properties as they relate to the alcohols are primarily those related to molecular weight such as viscosity, pour point, flash point, and volatility. The versatility in designing these fluids is mainly related to the selection and mix of the acids esterified onto the alcohols.



The major application for polyol esters is jet engine lubricants where they have been used exclusively for more than 30 years. In this application, the oil is expected to flow at -54 C, pump readily at -40 C, and withstand sump temperature approaching 200 C with drain intervals measured in years. Only polyol esters have been found to satisfy this demanding application.


Polyol esters are also the ester of choice for blending with PAOs in passenger car motor oils. This application reduces fuel consumption and lowers volatility in modern specifications. They are used in 2-cycle oils for the same reasons plus biodegradability.



Polyol esters are used extensively in synthetic refrigeration lubricants due to their miscibility with non-chlorine refrigerants. They are also widely used in a variety of very high temperature applications such as industrial oven chains, stationary turbine engines, high temperature grease, fire resistant transformer coolants, fire resistant hydraulic fluids, and textile lubricants.



For more information about our extensive line of trimethylolpropane, pentaerythritol esters and dipentaerythritol, we encourage confidential consultation with our technically trained Business Managers who can guide you to the best products or development programs. Given of the complexity involved in balancing the physical, chemical, and performance characteristics of our extensive range of ester products with the exact application and market needs, this preliminary consultation allows for the selection of the best product based on properties determined by you or defined by your application.



You can email us at hatcoinfo@chemtura.com, or submit your requirements using our Ester Design Sheet. Either way you can count on prompt and confidential service.

interesting
 

The Development of Synthesized Motor Oils:
A Historical Review

by Ed Newman
Marketing & Advertising Manager, AMSOIL INC.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AS THE YEAR 2000 APPROACHES, it is both a time of looking forward, and of looking back. No one a century ago could have foreseen the rapid transformations that science and invention would bring to our world. From rocket ships to microwaves, silicon chips to Dolly the cloned ewe -- it has been an astonishing period of history. I mean, a hundred years ago we didn't even have gas stations. Or highways. Or flat tires.

One of the transforming developments of our century has been the discovery of the process of organic synthesis, the combining of the raw materials of production into a nearly limitless array of plastics, films, fabrics and fluids. By understanding the geometry of organic compounds, chemists could create customized molecular designs to achieve preconceived objectives. Scientists realized that they could actually improve the characteristics of items found in nature.

One by-product of this process has been the development of synthetic motor oil. It is believed that the first synthesized hydrocarbons were created by Friedel & Crafts in 1877 using Aluminum TriChrloride as the catalyst. Yet it wasn't until 1929 that the commercial development of synthesized hydrocarbons was undertaken by Standard Oil of Indiana. Not surprisingly there was a lack of demand for the new product and this first marketplace introduction of synthetic lubricants was commercially unsuccessful. (There is probably no relationship between this event and collapse of stock market later that year.)

Eight years later the first PAO, a synthetic product using olefin polymerization, was manufactured. 1937 was also year that the Zurich Aviation Congress became interested in ester based lubricant technology. From 1938 to 1944 thousands of esters were evaluated in Germany with excellent results. In our own country ester basestocks were also being developed by the United States Naval Research Laboratory and introduced into military aviation applications during the 1940's.

During this period scientists were well funded, and the new processes of synthetic creation had some great success. But as is so often the case, the existence of a "better mousetrap" does not always result in its commercial survival.

It was the space age that helped create a greater appreciation for the benefits of synthetic lubricants. Jet engines raised the bar on what was required of a lubricant. The high speed, high heat and cold temperature performance requirements of modern jets created a demand for a new kind of lubricant.

Just after the war we saw the first use of diesters by the British in turboprop engines for high temperature performance. And from the late forties to the early seventies various synthetic fluids were developed to meet the demands of new and more efficient high performance engines and machines.

Because of the self-evident cold weather benefits of synthetic jet engine oil, it would not have been difficult to find a few maverick pilots experimenting with this oil in their cars. The military paid thirty-five dollars a quart for synthetic oil in those days and even the used jet engine oil seemed clean enough for some pilots in Alaska and elsewhere to mix with their motor oil to assist cold winter starts.

One such experimenter took a more systematic approach. In the mid-1960's, Lt. Col. Albert J. Amatuzio, jet fighter squadron commander at a northern Minnesota airbase, likewise had become familiar with these "extra ordinary" lubricants that protected the engines of the jets he flew. He began a research project that eventually became his life work and second career.

At first, Amatuzio's efforts were aimed at improving the performance of petroleum oil.
Eventually, Amatuzio realized the need to begin with a synthetic basetock and build his ideal lubricant from the ground up. His search led him to Monsanto, Drew Chemical Corporation and Hatco. It was Drew Chemical Corporation in Boonton, New Jersey, where the first polyol esters had been developed and patented in conjunction with Mobil Chemical in 1958. Mobil Oil's Jet Engine Oil II was based on the fluids produced at Drew Chemical.

The truth is, automobiles put even more stress on a lubricant than jet engines because air aspirated car engines must deal with dirt and the messy by-products of combustion. The problem was how to bring the expanded temperature range performance, wear protection and service life of a synthetic into an automotive setting. Amatuzio believed he had found a way.

According to Jack Arotta, a Duluth Minnesota businessman today, "I was the first guy to put it (a specially formulated 100% synthetic motor oil) in a brand new car, a 1966 Ford Station Wagon. Al was my squadron commander up at the air base, so I always use the joke that since Al was my squadron commander, how could I not put it in when he told me to."

Actually, for more than a year Jack had been putting a variety of Al's synthetic formulations in his previous cars, so he did not feel that he was putting his vehicle at serious risk. After several more years of fine tuning his formulation, AMZOIL (Amatuzio-oil) was created and became the first 100% synthetic diester based engine oil to pass the API sequence tests and receive API qualification in 1972.

The following year Mobil Oil began marketing the first PAO based engine oil overseas and in 1975 they began test marketing a synthetic PAO based synthetic in the U.S. called Mobil 1.

Over time a growing niche of consumers became aware of the performance benefits synthetic offered. As additional products were developed, from synthetic diesel oil to two cycle oils, synthetic transmission fluids and gear lubes, so grew the interest. With growing market opportunity, more companies made contributions in the development of basestock fluids and new technologies, including the Gulf Oil Company (since acquired by Chevron), Chevron Corporation, Amoco, Ethyl Corporation, Exxon, Henkel, Castrol, Uniroyal, Lubrizol, Neste Chemical, and Texaco (additive technology and synfluids since acquired by Ethyl).

By the mid-nineties nearly every oil company carried a high end synthetic motor oil in its product line, though only a few companies seem truly dedicated to promoting them. Nevertheless, synthetic lubricants are currently the fastest growing segment of the oil industry and they are definitely here for the long haul.

@ Bruce - interesting info.

FYI, the 1st commercially available fully synthetic Motor Oil was offered by Motul in 1947.

Motul, while considered a French Co. was actually a US company and a spin-off of Standard Oil (due to regulatory requirements) and was based in NYC until the 1930's when a french family who owned a significant share, bought out the rest of the company. They kept it in NYC until moving it's HQ to France in the mid-30's.

Though difficult to source in the US today (not impossible, just not widely available), Motul Synthetic is also a very good Oil which I believe ranks right up there with Red Line and Royal Purple.

Considering the following facts:
- Synthetic oils are better in every way than dino oils
- The Boxster uses synthetic
- The Boxster uses 9.25 quarts, nearly twice as much as the average engine, with the obvious advantage volume brings
- Porsche reccomends 15k mile change intervals on the 986
- The 3000 mile change is a farce continuing to be perpetrated on us by the industries profiting from it, but still coloring our views
- It has been shown that *fresh* oil is actually more damaging than reasonably dirty oil
- We've seen independant oil test that show the oil to still be fine at extended intervals

Unless you're tracking your car a lot, I don't understand what the nervousness is all about. 10k mile intervals are *very* conservative. Relax. :cheers:

I don't think the 3K oil change has been endorsed here.

I see Motul MC oil in most of the shops I visit (save HD).

Never have seen their car oil here but it is highly regarded on the Continent.

:D

I didn't say that it was; I said that it was coloring many views. It may be subconsciously making some nervous since they've had it drilled into their heads for years that the oil should be changed every 3k miles.

You may be right. old habits die hard.

:)

How diligent are you up in WI about keeping the RPMs low when the oil is up to temp? It seems to take my car about 5-10 minutes before the temp is right until then I always short shift.

also, do you not change the filter either when you go that long without an oil change? I'm thinking about leaving the oil but changing the filter 3 times a year.
I last changed my oil in July and I've driven about 8K miles. I'm going to change it this weekend.

Yes I never exceed 3000 to 4000 rpms for at least 10 miles. I changed the oil filter with the oil, my owner's manual says every other oil change.

The ongoing discussion in which you challenged me to do an oil analysis, centered around engine wear. I drive mine hard, and the test you asked for says it is wearing less than average, which goes against your explanation of physics.

Oh, we are back to THAT again.

Gee, I didn't know.

I don't think you can revoke the law of physics by way of a couple of used oil analysis.

But, you can try!

:D

So an oil analysis and 34 years of driving Porsches hard without an engine failure is at least evidence that I am having fun without hurting my cars.

Paul,

I don't know why you have such a burr under your saddle on this issue.

I never suggested you not drive the car hard. If you having fun and not endangering anyone else, hey , have a go at it. Track that baby day and night.

What I was simply saying is that driving your car at very high RPMs is not GOOD for the engine, it is BAD for the engine. There is simply no other way of stating it. All things being equal, not engine engineer is going to tell you otherwise I would be.

That doesn't mean you will have an engine failure or it will simply wear out.

I think you can simply go about your business and drive the car as you will. Also, for all I care, you can run 30K miles on peanut oil. It is all good.

I just won't follow your lead.

If you will allow me my way of driving and maintaining, I certainly will allow you yours.

:cheers: