Engine swap heresy? 2JZ?

[tkn]

Originally Posted by tholyoak

Well with a later car it isn't much more labour than removal and reinstall of the engine/trans. A pre-2002 car as you can read in my posts over at Renntech will cost you a lot more in other parts and labour to get the 7.8DME Canbus systems integrated and unless you are doing the work, probably is cheaper to buy a later car.


Most places doing these conversions are charging ~25k

Todd

So I noted in your sig you have a 99 which you are doing this to. I guess since you are at the 3.6, you already invested in the electronics. At $25K, it is more tempting to buy a new car, but, as much as I love my Porsche, I am not sure I would buy another one at this point because of the limited tuning opportunities. For $25K on another sports car, you would probably have at least 600hp, a mid 4s 0-60, and a lot more upgrades.

Although I think the Boxster is better looking and a bit more balanced of a car than, for example, an old Supra or new 350Z, it seems like a lot to pay for relatively small hp gains. It is a shame too, because I love the mid-engined layout and a lot of the sportiness of the Boxster, but the engine, frankly, doesn't impress me too much which is why I started exploring the possibility of other transplants such as a 2JZ or maybe a VQ which seem to be much better built.

Don't steal my name plate, 986 GNS 600hp on tap easy easy easy. 993 transaxle will handle the torque if stocker can't.

[tkn]

Originally Posted by boxsterz

Don't steal my name plate, 986 GNS 600hp on tap easy easy easy. 993 transaxle will handle the torque if stocker can't.

Care to expand on the best way to get to 600hp? Turbo engine perhaps?

[husker boxster]

If you're so enamored with raw power and 0-60 times, why did you buy a Boxster in the first place? You said you like the looks and the mid-engine balance but didn't you know the Boxster is not a hot rod? Even after test driving one? The Boxster was underpowered in 98 and still is in 07. That's not what it's about.

If you turn your Boxster into a Basturd do you think you'll still have the good looks and balance? Shoehorning a 600hp straight six into the back will result in an awkward looking thing that performs like a late-80's 911 Turbo.

You're reluctant to spend $13 or $25K on a "simple" Porsche engine swap, yet you think putting an inexpensive engine in the Boxster won't cost you? I'm guessing it would run $50K in engineering and fabrication to make a Basturd. If you're doing the work yourself that cost would be less, considering your labor as "free". However, based on your line of questions, I'm assuming you're not in this line of work as your profession or hobby. Unless you have a real good friend or relative in the business, it'll cost you.

When you're done creating the Basturd and you grow tired of it, who's going to want to buy it from you? Not a Porsche purist. You could probably consider the number of people wanting a Basturd a niche market. Maybe the market could be counted on 1 hand (with a couple of digits sawed off for good measure).

Don't turn your Boxster into some freak show that travels the country in World Of Wheels and only zit-faced 13 yr olds will think is cool. Sell the Boxster if you're not happy with it and buy what makes you happy. It will be worth way more now in it's current condition than after it becomes a Basturd.

JMHO

[tkn]

Originally Posted by husker boxster

If you're so enamored with raw power and 0-60 times, why did you buy a Boxster in the first place? You said you like the looks and the mid-engine balance but didn't you know the Boxster is not a hot rod? Even after test driving one? The Boxster was underpowered in 98 and still is in 07. That's not what it's about.

....

Don't turn your Boxster into some freak show that travels the country in World Of Wheels and only zit-faced 13 yr olds will think is cool. Sell the Boxster if you're not happy with it and buy what makes you happy. It will be worth way more now in it's current condition than after it becomes a Basturd.

JMHO

I was waiting for this to show up in the thread, it seems like someone always has to show up and offer nothing constructive. I bought the Boxster just for a nice small car to cruise around in, and I love the handling. Now I have a bit more money, still like the car, and haven't seen anything that really draws me to buy another car really. I am just a bit disappointed that the engine seems to be anemic and not engineered well enough to actually be tuned in any serious way.

What do you care if I want to take my Boxster, toss in some random engine and turbo it? Suppose I even wanted to put a huge double-decker spoiler, lots of stickers and neon lights underneath it? Sure, if it is $50K, then there is no way I would bother, I would probably just buy something else. If it can be done for a price comparable to buying a 3.4L engine, give me more horsepower and more potential upside for later, then that would not be a bad choice.

And seriously, the whole Basturd thing isn't even close to clever. Seriously, I don't worry about how other people are going to perceive my decisions, I outgrew that when I stopped being an adolescent.

[husker boxster]

Some possible options are:

1. Buy a late model 987S. That would get you an addl 70hp. Not ground pounding but better than 217. I was looking at AutoTrader and Ebay the other day and there are some good prices on 06's. In a couple of months the prices will get even better.

2. The engine swap that has already been discussed. But you still have a 10 yr old car that may have other failures due to age.

3. How bout a 911 Cab since you like the looks of a Box? When you meet one on the street with the top down, you have to look at the side for the air vents to see if it's a Box or not. Most Boxster owners graduated from Miatas or MR2s. Maybe you're ready to go 993/996/997 from the Box? That would give you more HP.

I've had my Box for 2 yrs and will probably keep it for another 1 or 1.5 yrs. I'm like you in that nothing new really excites me. I wasn't hot for a 987 until I saw a Gaurds Red 05S at the dealer back in Feb. By the time I'm in the market for a replacement, the 05S should be what I can afford.

Good luck with your dilemma.

tkn, I'm talking Buick Grand National turbo power, 600hp is cake.



RE: tiresome Purist's rant




Now there are basically 2 camps on this board. The purists, and the modders. Purist are almost always less mechanically adept with less automotive knowlegde as a bunch, and so they get attached emotionally without having a good rationale why. I can see where they're coming from sometimes


Modders or hot rodders, understand the mechanicals, and thus are more able to detatch and analyse a car and it's parts, and take it for what it is -- A marvel of engineering, yes.. yes and passion too and all that good stuff, yeah that's why they made the Cayenne passionate bunch.


What's amusing is that the Boxter purist defends himself with the same venom spewed from the 911 crowd. Same hypocrisy, only it doesn't fit when they're driving the insult


Anyhow, I am eternally tired also of the, "that's not what a boxster was/is designed for, it's made for handling yada yada" line of thought. If so, why mod a car at all, why wider tires, rims, or desnork, etc...?? BECAUSE it's your ride. Do what you want. Get over it, Sheesh! The goal of any mod is to make it better, faster, tighter, lighter, whatever. The box is not some gospel piece of machinery never to be altered. It's a freakin car. Hot rod as you see fit. Hopefully it can be done in good taste, that's another issue entirely. But if there is added functionality without impacting the aesthetics (without being ugly), I'm all for it. I actually find many Porsche factory options hideous


Bastardizing. The only "legitimate" box then is a bone stock one from the factory? "Hey what's that air freshener doing in your car you bastard!"


Off soap box.

Originally Posted by tkn

I was waiting for this to show up in the thread, it seems like someone always has to show up and offer nothing constructive. I bought the Boxster just for a nice small car to cruise around in, and I love the handling. Now I have a bit more money, still like the car, and haven't seen anything that really draws me to buy another car really. I am just a bit disappointed that the engine seems to be anemic and not engineered well enough to actually be tuned in any serious way.

What do you care if I want to take my Boxster, toss in some random engine and turbo it? Suppose I even wanted to put a huge double-decker spoiler, lots of stickers and neon lights underneath it? Sure, if it is $50K, then there is no way I would bother, I would probably just buy something else. If it can be done for a price comparable to buying a 3.4L engine, give me more horsepower and more potential upside for later, then that would not be a bad choice.

And seriously, the whole Basturd thing isn't even close to clever. Seriously, I don't worry about how other people are going to perceive my decisions, I outgrew that when I stopped being an adolescent.

[David N.]

Lets not forget the great Porsche insult tho. The Boxster's engine was capped by Porsche for one important reason, protecting the 911's market and it's buyer's satisfaction with the value of their purchase.

I think putting a more powerful porsche engine in there is the ideal counter, maybe even multilink suspension if you can figure out a way. If resale value isn't a concern, might as well amp up yer Box and make it the machine that Stuttgart is afraid to offer.

Personally if you are looking for cost effectiveness I'd say an STI flat-4. Compact, reliable, and easily capable with bigger turbos.

-David

[efahl]

Originally Posted by David N.

Personally if you are looking for cost effectiveness I'd say an STI flat-4. Compact, reliable, and easily capable with bigger turbos.

I'm not so sure... How are the flow numbers on the Scooby compared to the heads on a Box motor? I'd think just a DIY turbo system on the Porsche motor would be the most cost effective, since you don't have to fab up motor mounts and transmission adaptors and all that stuff. The only real engineering problem is how to intercool it.

On the more extreme end, the GNS motor sure has a lot to say for it, the 600 HP mark is pretty trivial for those guys, but packaging would be hard. You'd be cutting out the sheet metal over the motor and tubing out the rear structure to get enough clearance and strength to hold it up. Anyone local to me doing this? I'd love to come over and help.

David, what are you thinking when you say multi-link suspension? My oldest son has a '91 CRX with the dual wishbone suspension in front (well, all around), and I've always looked at that design as model for how to fix a Macpherson-in-front car.

Oh, while I'm at it, does anyone know torque limits on the various Boxster/911 transmissions?

Eric

Yes, it's a shame the box got hobbled [box peak hp is 6000-6200 rpm vs. 996 3.4L 6800 rpm, 11.0 CR vs 11.3 CR, makes me wonder where the power loss is...DME, valve timing, intake/exhaust tract, or all the above? The 986S should be closer to 300hp!]. Porsche is a biz after all, and detuning the box makes sense, biz wise. Why cut off the arm that feeds you?


STi swap is debatable. If you're talking Value, in hp/dollars (you provide all labor):


300 hp stock/$9k (tranny adapter plate, electronics ECM, fabrication cost of motor mounts, plumbing, et...http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-SUBARU-EJ20T-WRX-ENGINE-STI-TURBO-MOTOR-WRX-RIMS_W0QQitemZ260152375668QQihZ016QQcategoryZ33615 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem )
+400hp-modded/ add $2k unexplored territory reliability wise, sky's the limit.


In that case, a supercharged boxter is ~300hp without all the packaging/fabing nightmares for $5k/$3k used. This would be much easier. Off boost response vs. turbo will be superior from a street standpoint. I vote stock modded if 300hp ish is the goal. 3.4L transplant doesn't seem like great value to me either, 325hp/$10k?


I hear Turbowerx is coming out with a 3.2TT kit. I would guess the price point would have to be somewhat less than a 3.4L swap for it to be viable. We'll see.

Eric, I like the way you think


I have some trick solutions for packaging intercoolers on the box, I may be headed down the DIY TT at some point if a commercial kit isn't availible soon. Biggest problem I see is 11.0 CR which makes any detonation catastrophic. Tuning would have to be spot on for peak power and any reliability. I've also thought about meth injection too as a safeguard vs tearing down the block and installing forgies.


The GN swap is doable, I've yet to take measurements. The V6 is not that tall campared to the full long block of the boxer, if the intake plenum and plumbing is done right, chances are good it will fit (the crank centerline will determine all, if not the rear trunk could be raised for packaging.) Subframe connectors would be easy if needed. Stouter control arms not so easy. Cromoly arms could be fabbed for prolly $2k.


Where are you located?

Originally Posted by efahl

I'm not so sure... How are the flow numbers on the Scooby compared to the heads on a Box motor? I'd think just a DIY turbo system on the Porsche motor would be the most cost effective, since you don't have to fab up motor mounts and transmission adaptors and all that stuff. The only real engineering problem is how to intercool it.

On the more extreme end, the GNS motor sure has a lot to say for it, the 600 HP mark is pretty trivial for those guys, but packaging would be hard. You'd be cutting out the sheet metal over the motor and tubing out the rear structure to get enough clearance and strength to hold it up. Anyone local to me doing this? I'd love to come over and help.



Oh, while I'm at it, does anyone know torque limits on the various Boxster/911 transmissions?

Eric

[tkn]

A late model Boxster S would have some advantages in that the brakes are better and the power is tolerable, but frankly I kind of like the idea of having a motor that has essentially unlimited upside for tuning, hence my initial inquiries regarding the 2JZ which is probably the best made engine block ever sold (800hp+ on stock internals).

If a Grand National V6 will fit, I can hope that a VQ would fit. The VQ has the advantage of a really dedicated tuning community and being a more modern design. Frankly I don't mind chopping up my Boxster a bit, it is not like its current sale value is all that high (~15Kish?)

It doesn't really make sense to do the 3.4L mod from a cost perspective. I would probably just sell my current Boxster and buy one with the mod already done, since they don't add much value to the car.

[Dr. Kill]

Personally, I would not consider putting a non-Porsche motor in my car. But that's just how I feel about MY car. I would love to see someone build a 600-800 HP Boxster. If in achieving that end, that person elects to use a Toyota, Mitsubishi, or hovercraft engine in their car, it just makes the project more interesting.

I really hope you do this, and I hope you keep us posted along the way.

[efahl]

Originally Posted by Dr. Kill

Personally, I would not consider putting a non-Porsche motor in my car.

My feelings tend towards keeping a motor from the same manufacturer in the chassis, but more from a practical perspective than an aesthetic one. I've had too many car projects drag out for years even without the added complexity of mating alien DNA, so I shudder to think how long it would take me to get anything done if I had to make a set of motor mounts.

boxsterz: I fixed my location, I'm just west of Detroit for now, moving to SoCal in a few months...

Eric

[tkn]

Originally Posted by Dr. Kill

Personally, I would not consider putting a non-Porsche motor in my car. But that's just how I feel about MY car. I would love to see someone build a 600-800 HP Boxster. If in achieving that end, that person elects to use a Toyota, Mitsubishi, or hovercraft engine in their car, it just makes the project more interesting.

I really hope you do this, and I hope you keep us posted along the way.

Thanks. I contacted Vinny Ten Racing out here in NY to see about doing a VQ swap. We shall see what happens if he responds. I have a feeling it will be hard to find someone willing to do the swap because it is uncharted territory, but it would be a pretty damn cool one to have done, if just because of that.

I will definitely keep people updated if it goes. Probably document it on a blog or something.

tkn,


If you're wanting VQ, reconsider the GN mill. Deep community of tuners and hybriders there too. That "old technology" motor in stage II form is good for 2,000 hp. That's double Veyron power!

[tkn]

So who would know about the GN mill around NY? One of the reasons I was looking at the VQ was cause Vinny Ten is pretty experienced and comes with a lot of recommendations. I admit a bit of prejudice against US produced products in general, but it is not an absolute thing.