911 vs Boxster S
 

I was looking at the specs and wondering if the base 911 is considerably faster than the Boxster S and if so, why :

2007 911 Carrera
$73,500.00
0-60 in 4.8 sec ( manual )
325 hp / 273 ft-lb torque
3075 lbs curb weight

2007 Boxster S
$58,910.00
0-60 in 5.1 sec ( manual )
295 hp / 251 ft-lb torque
2987 lbs curb weight

This equates to the 911 having .1056 hp / lb and the Boxster S having .0987 hp / lb ( a difference of only .0069 hp / lb )

It the 911 worth the extra $15,000 strictly from a performance standpoint ?

Thoughts ?

Nick

From a performance standpoint? no. From an emotional standpoint? guess it depends on the person.

I drove both back to back. 911 feels like it has more torque at low RPM but Boxster is much better balanced as we all know.

I think that it all depends on your feel -- similar to what someone above posted.

Couple of question regarding specs (not trying to thread-jack and somewhat relevant to the original post):

I'm curious as to whether people actually achieve the "reported" times reported in the specs. Likewise, how many cars are tested before coming to the conclusion of, lets say 4.8 seconds? Are these factory-trained "professional" drivers that run 10 or so times (on a track?) and they take an average?

I also thought I read a thread or a post on this forum stating that cars of the same model and year may have different acceleration, hp? etc., from like models of the same build year. Granted, I'm not basing this on anything scientific as I was just thinking about this, but I would venture that a given driver would likely achieve different times per car and (perhaps?) per stats reported from the car company -- anyone ever try to match the acceleration times or have experience with other models? I ask this also because I've also read either here or another forum -- especially when attending auto-x, that experienced drivers can often attain better times, etc., than the respective owners...

In a straight line the Carrera feels faster but, when it comes to cornering the Boxster takes the cake. Boxster feels alot more stable and grips the road better.

Well, to a real racer, the more relevant observation is that at no time in any motorsport do you accelerate from 0-60 and leave it at that.

Drag racing: Maybe an 1/8th mile in a slow car.
Autocrosing: nope
Time trials: nope
Wheel to wheel: nope

It's a pointless figure used by people to "compare" cars, but it's really not a fair comparison. The same is true for peak horsepower. Power is energy per unit time, it is a continuous time calculation of energy produced divided by revolutions of the engine. But area under the curve (total energy) is far more relevant. Furthermore, torque has as much to do with gearing as it does with torque curves. In first gear, your car puts down more than 1000ft lbs of torque!

I'm a professional analyst, so I always get bent around the axle on specs, because invariably specs are point estimates: single data points or statistics that are supposed to accurately describe a system. The problem is that the system cannot be reduced to a point and then compared to another system.

[/rant]

where's the 3.4 CaymanS in your comparo?!

It's a big topic. Here are a couple of points.

1) Any 2 given cars will have different power/torque at the wheels, no two engines are exactly the same, no two transmissions, and no two tires.
2) Any two cars will have different weight, even identical cars won't weigh exactly the same
3) The performance numbers that magazines report are often the best run of a number of trys. And then they correct the numbers for atmospheric conditions and road surface conditions to try to normalize all the data from all the cars in all the different test locations. It's hardly an exact science.
4) The magazines have professional drivers testing the right RPM and clutch/accel/brake work to try to get the best acceleration, each driver will use a different technique and get a different number. So will actual owners.

Echoing what perfectlap said.... you are comparing a coupe to a convertible. Compare apples to apples and a boxster to a 911 cab. I scratch my head when people/magazines compare a coupe to a convertible especially when they don't have to. 911 coupe vs boxster S.....or boxster S vs covette coupe?? What's up with that? Now whats a 911 cab run these days?? 80 grand?? 0-60 time is what a 1/10 sec faster than a 3.4L boxster S? The reasons to buy a 911 are shrinking as we speak.

Again.. from a "numbers" standpoint, the 911 isn't "worth" it... but cars like this should be bought on "emotion" and "desire" and there are still many folks who would answer the question by driving a 911.

While comparing apples to oranges, driving my 2000 Boxster at the track is "easy" .. but driving my 1978 911 was much more "rewarding".

PL,

Regarding the Cayman S, all specs are the same as the Boxster S except price ( $59,100 ) and weight ( 2954 lbs ).

Adam, the reason I was using the Boxster S and 911 coupe is due to price. 911 cab puts you in the $80k price range, $25k more than the Boxster S.

Thanks for all the feedback, guys ( and also to cfos and flyadesk for the rant on specs ;) ).

Nick

i'd buy a cayman over a 911. nicer curves, engine in the right place. but if i had the money i'd buy a 911 turbo over anything porsche makes.

It's worth it from a performance standpoint to a family man who doesn't have room for another car. 2+2 seating is nice at times.

I know this is blasphemy to the porsche purists, but porsche needs to kill the 911 and let the boxster/cayman take it's spot. I know change is tough, but lets face it, the engine is in the wrong place and if they are truly a performance car company then they know what to do.

I don't mind them offering both. I just mind them limiting the Boxster's power to protect the supposed "relevance" of the 911. Why not tune all your cars to be the best they can be?

-David

the engine's been in the wrong place forever, and they know it too, but there will never be the end of 911

C'mon now.. to purists, Porsches are air cooled anyway ;)

I don't know how many 911 guys you've hung out with, but I've had someone say to my face that the Boxster and the 944 were the biggest mistakes Porsche ever made because they brought cheap losers into the Porsche elite.

There is a lot of ego feeding that takes place in the upper half of Porsche's line. These guys almost prefer the cars to be more expensive because it makes them feel more exclusive. You will never lose that element. I for one am almost surprised that the Boxster is still around. Their profit margins are much lower, and it would elevate the prestige and exclusivity of the brand to keep our "mere middle class blood" out of the pure bread line.

This is also why Ferrari will never bring back the Dino.

Of course, I instructed a corporate group once that had a bunch of 911 guys. After a member smashed up his beauty real bad at the track, we discussed renting race cars. We got them all in spec miatas, and after the initial disgust of the thought of driving a mere miata, they could not shut up about how fun and fast those little cars were. This is how I feel about the Boxster. It is loads of fun, whereas the 911 is just fast.

Dino on the way back!
 

I recently read in a car magazine (I know that's ridiculously vague, but my memory escapes me at the moment) an interview with the CEO of Ferrari. He said under no uncertain terms that there would not be a Dino. The reason cited was keeping the prestige level of Ferrari high.

Now that doesn't mean he was telling the truth or that things won't change. I just wouldn't hold my breath.

I have a back issue of EVO magazine that compared a loaded (PCCB) 987 Boxster S against a base 997 coupe with the standard brakes. After several test laps on one of their tracks, they consistently posted slightly better lap times with the Boxster. By slightly better, I mean 0.2 - 0.4 seconds. True, the Boxster had ceramic composite brakes, something that most Boxster owners will never order (and don't need) but it does say a lot, that it was able to best the 911's times. Unfortunately, once you tack on the price of PCCB, the Boxster ceases to be such a value!


And of course, after all that testing, I'm sure you know how the EVO writers voted... "We'd rather have the 911." Oh, well...

I wonder if the guys on the 911 forum ever really wonder if the Boxster S is a better car?? Something tells me probably not.

it is all about price point, the 944 turbo was faster then most of the 911's and the 986 S is very close, but you cant insult the Carrera owners by having the entry level machine be faster, same reason there wasnt a coupe for so long. If you look at the Porsche company vision, they will be moving into more markets to capture more market share, but it will always be up scale not down as the margins are better. In the end the 911 is the model that keeps the company profitable year over year which is what the shareholders want.

2 things, the 944 turbo was more expensive than the garden variety 911 of the same year, and Porsche almost went out of business in the eightys/ninetys, the Boxster was a key product that pulled them out of the toilet.

I have never driven an 911, but I do dream that one day I will order one brand new. I say this sitting at my desk looking at 911's online. I do this every so often, and then I go get in my BoxS and for some reason I stop wanting a 911. :)

I absolutely love the BoxS. It is so incredibly fun to drive.

Is the 911 worth the extra $15k? Sitting at my desk I tend to say yes, but once I'm driving around in my BoxS it is a much more difficult question to answer.


And BTW, I totally agree with "iflyadesk" regarding stats. Numbers on a sheet won't tell you the whole story. They are useful for people who want to get into a pissing contest about who's car is better. Recently I had someone on another board try to start crap with me about an EVO vs a BoxS. His quote was "an EVO would own a BoxS." Then the numbers started flying.

I don't care about the numbers. I care about how the car makes me feel when driving.

One day I will take a spirited drive in a 911, but until then I'm quite happy to tear about in my BoxS.

While @ a DE event @ VIR, I had the only Boxster S there. (03) There were also some Caymans, but mostly 911s of various model yr and trim levels. While there I swapped cars with a friend who has a 00 Carrera. After a short session, we compared notes. We both agreed that the Boxster S was easier to drive fast and inspired more confidence when approaching limits. We he was also surprised at the speed that the Boxster S could carry around the track. It's lower tq numbers gave him the idea that is would be much slower out of corners, but the balance and lighter weight helped make up for that. Although a DE event is not a race, there are always competitive undertones, and MANY 911 owners were surprised to see a Boxster (of all things) moving just as quickly or quicker around the track than than their cars. This is especially true or owners of the pre-996 cars.

In Porsche circles and every other owner group , you will find car guys and fan boys. The car guys are usually informed and have knowledge and information on a broad spectrum of sports cars. Fan boys usually believe that their cars are the only true sports cars and nothing can compare. You'll find that cars guys have a true respect for the Boxster and its capabilities, while fan boys believe that it's not even worth mentioning in the same breath or worthy to be on the track with their 1974 911s with 180 hp.

So to answer the question, the ideas and opinions of the uninformed don't hold much weigh.

Which is why it's such a shame that Porsche refuses to professionally compete with Caymans or even offer a track version.

I think the day will come. In Panorama last month, there was mention of privateers beginning to race Caymans in Europe, so it's probably just a matter of time and demand for racing parts and equipment supply to create the offering.

I hope so, There were racing versions of the 914 and 924, so there some precedent.

Well if they made a boxster to 911 specs and engine then it would be 15grand more.

Also theyre never going to kill the 911, just forget that idea. lol

Oh boy would I buy a 2200lb Cayman Cup car!

I love factory built race cars. Viper GTS Competition Coupe, 911 GT3 Cup, Miata R, Neon ACR, etc. I love it when the factory does all the development work and all we need to do is provide the nut behind the wheel.

Call me silly, but it looks like the Ferrari guys have allot of lines off the Cayman on that thing.

BTW- totally agree about the fanboys vs car guys. It's all about the driver at the level most of us compete at. For example: I have a friend that regularly puts the beatdown on Corvette Z06's in his Turbocharged 96 Miata in the modified street class at local motocross events. Makes most eyes pop out. His car is hella scary fast. Dynos at something like 250HP @ the wheels.

on a cur guy topic--It's weird sometimes going from my old beater (stock miata), to the BoxS. In a way, I wish I had some attributes of my Miata on the BoxS...Most notably the tight, fast steering box. While everything else is faster on my p-car, going from my miata to it , from a steering standpoint, feels like going from a schitzophrenic mouse to a lathargic cow.

Hmmmn...I wonder if there are tuning mods for faster steering on a Box out there...

-R.

I have both a 986 S & 996 c2,both 01's.

996=flashy,historic,respect from every driver on the road & wicked speed
986=more fun just to drive and easier to drive when pushing it

Another thing to note,whenever I've whipped a 986 around a turn too hard it's been very easy to correct. I heard 996s can result in the exact opposite.......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-997-GT3-Motor_W0QQitemZ260217758599QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m260217758599

I (hopefully) will get behind the wheel of the 996 at least once this auto-x season along with my 986 S. I'll report back when that happens.

If you like quick steering try a 2003 Honda S2000. (Not the 2004+)

It's so intuitive and responsive it's bordeline ridiculous.

Are you sure about this? The largest sales by volume is actually the Cayenne, but I certainly don't know what thier margins are per unit...I'd be interested to see a profit-by-model pareto of thier entire line. I'd assume all lines are in the black!

Also, let the 911 owners complain all they want about 986/7/944 bringing poor donkeys to Pcar, but what about an SUV? Not only filling the line with a "soccer mom" car, but its also the lowest MSRP thing they make.

Boxster
 

My opinion is no. The 986-987 as well as the Cayman will out-handle the 911. Besides that it is a more drivable car. You don't have to worry of all the weight hanging over the rear tires as you turn. Given equal horsepower the cars would perform pretty even except in the real world of turns and curves, in that arena the Boxsters/Cayman will shine. The new RS-60 with 303 horses pushes the top speed of the 987 to over 170 mph. If the comparisons are cabriolet to Boxster then the performance advantage of the 911 diminishes. Considering the delta of the top speeds and 0-60 of both cars it is negligible and since in the US you cant drive like in the Autobahn then top speed is removed from the equation.
The Boxster has beautiful lines as well as the Cayman much more aesthetic than the 911 cabrio which looks like a rube goldberg sandwich. Those consumers( the perrier crowd) than have no knowledge of cars will opt for the 911 because of its bling. Those who know about cars and handling will opt for the Boxster and Cayman because of their bang.

Blink,

How often to you get to drive the 911 ?

Nick

Lol I drive it out of the garage often so I can work on my 986. I drive it about once a month or whenever my Dad does a mod and wants a photo shoot with my camera friend.

Excellent post. It is entirely true when dealing with the 996/997 elite crew.
Remember my "Boxsters Suck" thread where my 11 year old nephew reminded me how my Boxster sucks. http://986forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13662 --- I have always thought was funny and directly related to his dad's comments I am sure (GT3, Viper GTS, Lambo owner), so what do you expect right?

Well, amazingly I moved to a new subdvision in Mandeville with houses in
400-600k range and neighborhood kids actually had an entirely positive reaction. Heck, I even drove it to work across the causeway and got it above 4k (just to clean the carbon) LOL -- a few times....I think I briefly hit 110 while avoiding a "pacer convention" with a few drivers...it was a fun couple seconds anyhoo...

I don't thnk we will ever lose the "entry level image" when it comes to the purists, but I love my car for exactly what it is....a fun distraction and toy that just makes me smile each time I drive it...and that to me is truly priceless.....

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: