Intermediate Shaft Bolt
 

When I had my 01S in for it's 60k service, the dealer informed me that the intermediate shaft bolt was broken. I hadn't noticed any issues when driving the car. They said they can replace the shaft and it should be fine.
Just wondering if replacing the shaft will prevent the need for engine replacement or will the engine eventually need replacement?
How long could the car be driven with the bolt broken before it causes damage to the engine?

Was your transmission removed?

They had removed the tranny as it had a RMS leak. As part of their inspection, that is when they had noticed the broken bolt.

This is interesting. But first lets make sure.

The intermediate shaft has a nut on the end. The nut is on a threaded shaft. if that nut has broken off then there is usually catastrophic engine damage and oil pours out of the engine. You then replace the engine.

The intermediate shaft also a a flange on the end. This flange is bolted to the rear of the engine with 3 bolts. Those bolts are never a problem.

If it is the nut then I do not know. When you see a broken nut the engine is already toast. I would have to ask Peter Smith about this, as it is something new.

Does the dealer want to take the engine apart to replace the intermediate shaft?

They want to replace the shaft/bolt. They want to ensure the shaft will fit properly. If it doesn't work, then they said it may require engine replacement.

I spoke to a mechanic, as this was new to me. He has seen this a few times.

The nut goes on the shaft for the intermediate shaft bearing support. When the nut shears off it is disaster waiting to happen. The bearing for the intermediate shaft falls into the engine and you have engine damage. That is when oil pours out of the hole left by the broken nut.

He has seen just a very few cars where the nut has sheared off and the bearing has not yet moved. Porsche puts a lot of loctite somewhere (I forget where he said) and the bearing may stay in place for while. But when the engine gets hot and/or you rev it up then boom.

He said the bearing support cannot be removed and replaced from the outside of the engine. The engine has to be taken apart. At his dealership the engine is simply replaced.

That is what I was told.

Don't drive the car.

How much does your dealer want to try to fix this?

Wow! This is amazing stuff. Lets follow this all the way through.

Great information.

:)

To replace the shaft and bolt they said it would cost $1200. If the engine needs replacing it would be $6000.

This is a 2003 2.7 that I took in 2003.

The upper green line is where the nut is supposed to be. The lower green line is the broken off nut that fell down. That car was towed in because the engine had already been damaged. That engine was replaced.

This is a good engine. The yellow arrow points to where the nut should be. Right in the middle of the intermediate shaft flange.

Thanks for the pics Tool Pants,it's makes everything a lot easier to understand.

Thanks for the information. I will take a look at the engine when I'm back at the dealer.

Hopefully the shaft replacement with solve the problem.

Ask a lot of questions and take pictures, for what little good that may do you.

There is nothing you did to cause this. The M96 motor is a great design on paper. This is a weak point. Ask your dealer when Porsche switched from a double to a single bearing, and what bearing is in your motor.

Ask them why this part failed.

Good luck.

Very interesting. I know the 996 series cars still had the RMS issue, but is the IMS still an issue on the 3.4 and 3.6 motors?

Patrick

Here's an update on the problems with the IMS. There was some oil leaking from the IMS seal and it looks like when the dealer was inspecting the engine, they tried to tighten the bolt and it sheared off.
I have a new intermediate shaft being installed in the engine as there was no damage to the engine. The new shaft has 2 seals and they have improved the design of the shaft by increasing the diameter to improve it's strength. There are 2 seals on the shaft - both internal and external now.

I will post some pictures to show the differences in the shafts. Maybe a start of Porsche working to improve the design.

Cheers

Jeff, do you have any pics of the rear main seal you could point to so I can see what this rascal actually looks like?

In my nightmares, the rear main seal is about six feet tall and it spews oil out on everything around it and I drown in a pool of hot engine oil as my wife says, "I told you that car was going to be the death of you!"

Now I'm gonna have intermediate shaft failure nightmares too. :eek:

Hi,

This is nothing new, just different, incorrect, verbage. The IMS failure is mainly reserved to the '01 and later cars when Porsche redesigned the Intermediate Shaft to lessen engine vibration. When this was done, they switched to a single bearing (not the seals) over the previous two. The issue persists to this day.

What the lister is describing here is not an IMS failure, but incompetence on the part of the Dealer Mechanics who sheared off the IMS nut by overtightening it - that's something completely different. It's not an inherent failure but poor wrentching on the part of the mechanic.

The non-egas cars are essentially immune to this failure because the IMS in these cars is supported by 2 bearings which hold it on it's spin axis whereas the single bearing has been shown to allow meandering of this shaft which drives the Camshaft Chains. At high revs, this shaft become misshapened and eventually fails, breaks and shreds the Oil Seals. Ironically, usually at low revs.

In other words, Randall, nothing to lose sleep over...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Whew! Glad I checked in here before I shut the laptop cover for the night (it's 11 pm now).

Who'da thunk having an OLD Boxster engine would be a good thing?

Good job Jim!

Sometimes, new and improved isn't! :D

This is very interesting indeed. So for those of us who have E-gas cars, how much should we worry about IMS failure? If my motor has already made it over 50K does that put me in any better shape (as in, I got a "good" motor since it seems a lot fail at low mileage)? Is there any evidence the 3.2 is less at risk than the 2.7 or vice versa?

Patrick

The latest version seal aka the Cayenne style is in my hand. The green plastic ring in the middle of the seal is an installation aid and the ring is later removed.

Gee. It's so small and unassuming. Who would think that it could kill your engine?

Thanks for posting the pic!

Int. Shaft Bearing
 

Tool Pants scenario is exactly what happed to my '03 at 27000kms resulting in a '04 replacement engine.
Good luck with your ouutcome.
Glenn

On Renntech there was a thread discussing this issue as well:

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=15021

Here's a nugget from that thread..

"I don't know if the issue is completely resolved or not but the intermediate shaft has been redesigned. I cant say when exactly it was introduced or give an engine number range but the new style is very easy to recognize as the nut on the end is now something like a 24mm instead of the old 13mm. Anyhow pretty much all of the 05 and early 06s still have the old style shaft so 9x7's are still very susceptible to failure. For what its worth I have not seen a new style intermediate shaft fail, or leak for that matter. "

Does anybody have any more information on what the redesign actually is, and what dates the "new design" took over? Has anyone heard of a a failure of the new design?

Joe

I would have to guess this was done when they tweaked the motor for the 987 launch. My neighbors 04 model lost an engine due to IMS failure so not in that year! :D

Intermediate Shaft Broken (2005 Boxster S)
 

Hi fellow Boxster owners.

My 2005 Boxster S broke down and had to be towed to my local Porsche dealer. They said the Intermediate Shaft was broken and most likely needed a new engine. My 4 year warranty just expired 3 months ago. The dealer said they will try to get Porsche corporate to give a replacement engine for goodwill (no cost) and that i would have to pay for labor to replace it ($2,200).
Does this sound right ?
Seems as if there is a systematic problem / issue w Porsche's intermediate shaft.
Any advice?

This could be my last Porsche is this issue is not satisfactorily and pleasantly resolved.

Help.

You have the exact same problem that several of our customers have had.. Your Porsche Dealer is like the one mentioned in the testimonial on the front page of my site, at the bottom www.flat6innovations.com ... We saved his engine and his money when the same exact issue struck..

We **may** be able to save yours, but Porsche can't and won't try to.. Most don't know that the technology exists because their information supply source is limited to themselves.

These pics describe your scenario... Explore the possibilities outside Porsche before going further. if you just have oil loss, minor noise and etc the bearing may possibly be worth extracting and replacing. This is done with the engine in the car as depicted here.

http://www.flat6innovations.com/saving-an-engine-ims-retrofit

It's really a shame that we're now seeing 9X7 cars having IMS problems. Are you the original owner of the car? If so, it's likely that Porsche will offer a goodwill replacement, though you'll have to pickup the labor. If you get this option, it's not a bad deal (though not a great one either, as this shouldn't have happened). The new motor will come with a 2 year, unlimited mileage warranty and should have all the latest updates (although, unless your car was a very early production 05, it should have had the later, much larger IMS bearing).

It may be possible to save your motor by extracting what's left of the IMS and updating it to the LN part, but if Porsche offers you a goodwill motor that's still a better option. If Porsche does not, then it only makes sense to try to save as much of your motor as possible.

For those about to buy...
 

and would prefer not to die.
Is there any way either in the standard PPI - or by the means of a special procedure to spot an issue before hand?

Seems like it would be a big false sense of security to have a PPI catch a dirty air filter - and then miss an RMS or IMS problem.

The IMS or RMS cannot be accessed without removal of the gearbox, which would make for a very expensive PPI. If you're going to pull the gearbox, may as well update the IMS, replace the RMS, and do a clutch.

At this point in the game I wouldn't buy a NA 996/997/986/987 without planning on the immediate expense of having the IMS retrofit and clutch. My 99 is in right now for the IMS portion (unfortunately did the clutch just last year). Keep spreading the word Jake!

Chris

...it wasn't so much of an issue with 2.5L engines....you engine sleeves cracked instead. :p

Broken sleeves? I hadn't heard of that being as much of an issue on 2.5L as the larger variants later on. Doesn't worry me, I drive it as much as possible anyways! :)

Chris

They all have the potential to crack. 3.4 and 3.6 motors are likely to be seeing more of this as the mileage racks up, as the few that we've measured the bores on all show deformation across the thrust axis. As the cylinders become more and more oval, the ductility limit of the metal will be reached sooner or later, and the sleeve will crack. 2.5 and 3.2 motors have the thickest sleeves, but even those have had liner failures.

The only motor that hasn't seen a liner failure yet is the M97 3.8.