In the last 3 mo we've had 3 news-worthy break-ins in Omaha. They all followed the same pattern:

- The intruder was high on crack or pcp. Evidently they get very warm in this condition so they strip naked before they go intruding. People, it's been COLD here the last 3 mo. Running around naked at night in the middle of winter is not good for the extremities.

- They seem to gain strength in this condition. One intruder required 6 officers to be subdued. Another was shot 4 times before he even slowed down.

- Then the mother appears on TV crying about the loss of her blessed angel. One even said her kid was trying to kick the drugs. Yeah right, I'm sure he was breaking in to a stranger's house in the middle of the night to ask for directions to the nearest rehab center.

Grizz is right, you better be ready to fire several rounds. They are not in a normal state of mind and it will take a lot of force to subdue them. I don't own a gun and hopefully won't need to, but you have to do what makes you feel safe.

Not with a .45, it was designed to kill people hopped up on dope in WW2. Apparently the .38 was not stopping the enemies as they were high on some drug I forgot the entire story, hence the birth of the .45. Throw a gold dot round in there and I don't care if you hit the shoulder the perp is on the way to the floor. I also have a Remington 1120 semi, as Bruce noted you don't have to aim with sleepy eyes when you have a shotgun. Instead of the glass of wine find a kitchen knife and put it in the dead guy's hand, then call the po po

I'll chime in here although I usually avoid these threads like the plague...

I keep a handgun for home defense, but I also train with it. I've got 100s of hours of training; last year alone I trained 6 days with a couple instructors for the Richmond SWAT team (Richmond is not the sorta place you would drive a Boxster in). Anyway, we do simunition training which is sorta like really good paintball except that they're fired out of modified real handguns, not toys. They run us through all sorts of scenarios (ATM robberies, home invasions, hostage situations, etc), almost all at night/dark using flashlights against live people. High stress stuff.

Anyway, in all those classes, with 10 people running through each scenario, you gotta figure I've seen a couple hundred events and half of them end in shootouts (sometimes the badguys listen when we tell them to do stuff or just run away). I've seen absolutely 0 head shots taken. I've seen people shot in the head, but never on purpose. Even at our training level it's hard to think head shots under crazy stress. Against paper, yea. Against living breathing people trying to do you harm, nope. The instructors do it, but they're real pros.

One of the instructors has done over 5000 home entries serving warrants and/or getting bad guys. He's also shot and killed numerous people. He's one of many that debunk the myth that a shotgun being racked will stop any serious criminals. If they're brave enough to come into your home, they're brave enough to face a homeowner who didn't think to chamber a round until the last minute. These people are not right in the head and often on drugs, they're feeling no pain and have no fear. Intimidation doesn't work, well placed hits do.

Oh, and all the instructors shoot .45s. All the students end up shooting .45s. I don't know if we're some cult or something, but on the line you see nothing but 1911 pattern weapons. I used to be a glock 23 guy, but gave that up after the first few classes. Once you figure out how to run a 1911, you never go back. There's a reason all those old cranky guys use 'em. They work.

If you're not going to train/practice, I would suggest to avoid any sort of weapons. Just get a dog or two, an alarm and hope 911 gets there in time.

I wouldn't go as far as saying 'if you're not going to train, avoid weapons'.

I haven't gone to a DE. Should I avoid Porsches?
Formal training IS an asset... but not a requirement.

I have no formal training with any of my weapons... but I don't think that mattered when I came in 3rd out of 57 shooters in a local IDPA match. I did so through making myself familiar with my weapon, how it shoots, how to reload quickly, and all that.

I'd say it like this - if you're not willing to learn how to use a weapon (through formal training or otherwise), THEN you probably should reconsider having one.

You're right, I updated my line to include practice.

I just don't like the idea that people seem to get that they can buy a gun, throw it in a drawer, and suddenly it will save them if needed. That's how innocents get hurt/killed and it's what the media thrives on.

You ARE right about that. A gun isn't a magic talisman that wards off evil. It's a tool, and one has to know how to use a tool!

I like the colts, I have four. I also have a Baretta too and it's a great gun. I have several family members in law enforcement, one on the federal level. The fed has a glock and my cousin carries a S&W on the local force. Heckler & Koch is a fine weapon too as is the sig sauer. The fed was a Seal team member, he could shoot you dead with any of the above, skill means a lot, brands don't.

. "I also have a Remington 1120 semi, as Bruce noted you don't have to aim with sleepy eyes when you have a shotgun. Instead of the glass of wine find a kitchen knife and put it in the dead guy's hand, then call the po po"

Can I have the wine AFTER I put the knife in the guys hand?

:)

Absolutely, my dad was a deputy sheriff worked with a local judge for 25 years. It was actually the judge who told me to put a weapon in the dudes hand, go figure. He has since past away but his reasoning was sound.

My brother (retired cop) recommended the 18" shotgun to me, pref a pump 10 guage. However, we debated the pump vs the double barrel.

Either way, you can pretty much be a crappy shot and hit the entire front door just as the perp enters.

Now, here in CA, I would have to hire a defense atty as it isn't clearly legal to kill someone who just knocked down your front door.

Go figure! I'm moving soon, so to H,, with CA.

Not legal to kill intruders in NY either, deadly force can only be used when confronted with deadly force. then you have the intangible of a jury, I like the knife idea a lot. Even better if we all never have to choose.

If you are suggesting that there are guys who can take two rounds from a 10 guage shotgun and keep coming, hey, I'd like to see those guys.

But, you may be right!

Actually the coolest move I ever saw was the seal being screwed with by my cousin in the lake. Next thing I knew Bob had him totally underwater, out of sight with his legs only, just smiling as he appeared to be recreating in the water like everyone else. I can tell you this, what those guys can do in the water is astounding.

I'm glad Texas is a 'Castle Doctrine' state.

You break into my house for ANY reason, I'm well within my rights to ventilate you. I like it that way... it's a deterrent to hot home invasions.

_________________________________________

Being born and raised in the Greater NY area, I'm familiar with attitudes about the hot topic of gun control. My parents were part of that crowd. But think about this: the same crowd which hates government, hates terror spy-tapping, hates the war, hates the patriot act, hates most capitalism, and "loves" "free speech" is the same crowd willing to cede the government sole monopoly having all firearms.

p.s. The following is predicated on stereotypes, either true or percieved, of course.

After reading everyone's preferences for home defense weapons, I would like to point out how important a flashlight is. The new gen weapons lights like the Surefire X200 are blindingly bright and will at the very least make a perp flinch and ruin his night vision. Most importantly, though, is it allows positive target identification. I have night sights on all my pistols, but you want to make sure you aren't shooting your teenager when he sneaks back into the house in the middle of the night. And another cool thing about them is that at short (read defensive) ranges, point of impact is pretty close to the focus of the light, so it's point and shoot which is easier than trying to take aim which you won't be able to do under stress unless you train that way all the time.

________________________

Funny you should mention flashlights. The new LED technology arrived to flashlights recently and I'm absolutely amazed. There are alot of manufacturers but MAGlite has these new flashlights and they are incredibly bright and last 4x longer than incandescent bulbs. I bought 2 of them recenlty and very, very pleased. 2d battery and aa battery size.

NOTE: I nor anyone I know is a stockholder, nor do I have any pecuniary interest in Maglite.

I agree with Grizzly about layers of defense. That is always the best approach to mitigate any risk. For detective controls, a loud home alarm and a barking dog are a good first line of defense:
1) It let’s the intruder know they are detected and gives them a chance to rethink their actions before the stakes go up.
2) The detective controls alert you to the threat and buy you time to locate a weapon (corrective control)
You obviously don’t want to have to shoot anyone, but having that option is a good piece of mind and might be the only thing that can save your family.

In terms of weapons, I would stay away from the .22, 9mm, and even 10mm. They tend to put holes in people, but go out the other side. A nice .357, .40, or ,.45 typically do a better job of transferring more kinetic energy to your attacker and that translates to stopping power.

I would also not recommend a shotgun. Yes the sound of a 12 gauge pumping is a good deterrent in and of itself, and if you do line up a good shot, you will likely paint the wall with your attacker, but in my experience clearing rooms, I would want something much much shorter – picture coming around a corner and running into your attacker at less than arm’s length – I would take an pistol over a shotgun any day in that scenario.

An MP5 would be my weapon of choice in reclaiming my house, but most of us (including me these days) do not have access to such a wonderful tool. In the absence of that, a good old fashioned M1911A1 or .45 revolver should be all that is needed.

MP-5. :D I've been carrying one since we transitioned away from the uzi in the late 80's. Others on the team carry the P-90. I did some testing on a new experimental weapon last year, but by the time the Government makes the switch, I'll be retired and dead.

I just wanted to offer a comment on flashlights. While I agree with the power to blind your adversary and certainly to identify your target, you need to be very careful about how to handle your flashlight so that it doesn't get you killed.

First, and most importantly, never hold the flashlight in front of your body, or attach it to your weapon. I know you see it on TV all the time, but don't do it unless you're willing to practice room clearing for several hours a day. If you hold the flashlight in front of your body and confront an armed attacker, he will fire at the light and catch you in the chest. Hold the flashlight in your off hand, as far away (out to the side) from your body as you can, slightly in front and above you so that you don't sillouette yourself with your own light.

Second, don't turn the flashlight on and leave it on as you clear your house. Get one with the push button on/off. Turn it on for quick flashes, look at what you want to see, turn it off and MOVE. The bad guy will fire where he saw you last. Don't be there.

If your situation ends in gunfire, shoot and move, shoot and move, shoot and move. Move laterally, not forward and backward. Do not stand flatfooted and fight it out. Keep moving. Learn the difference between cover and concealment and use available cover whenever possible. Only leave cover if you've identified better cover elsewhere. Always point your weapon where you are looking, just like you were pointing your finger. Don't point the gun at the ceiling or floor like the TV detectives. By the time you acquire your target that way, you'll be screwed.

LOL dang, why do i have to be "dead wrong", why cant i just be "wrong" haha

Reason i said the bouncing thing about the rounds is that in the past when asked about my firearm, the gun store helper or whoever has mentioned that bouncing thing. So i figure its probably true but guess its a myth.... Grizzly, would you say thats "Myth Busted"?

I'd likely aim for the head with the first 2 rounds and unload the next 8 rounds into the body, Im pretty sure i could stop any burgler unless they are on PCP, then ill have to wrestle that mofo down... wonder if they make a knife attachment for my utility rail on the 22.? :D

Are you talking about the G-36 or its variant the 416? Or is this something complteley new?

that might work, but why count on 10 shots for a kill when a single fist-sized hole from a '45 would likely do a bit better?

I am not great with a pistol, but could probably pull off the 10 shots you mention rapid fire at a target range, but in my house, in the dark, with my heart pumping at 160BPM or whatever while scared out of my mind, I am not sure. Also, what do you do to the second guy after putting 10 rounds in the first?

You mean what was I testing? It was a modified version of the Tavor or TAR21. It's an Isreali Bullpup and I fell in love with it. But, by the time the agency commits I'll be a shriveled up old man.

C.J., you crack me up dude! Please don't try to wrestle a guy on PCP. Been there done that. He will definitely bring the pain upon your ass!

Good point doc.

Here's a funny link. It's a Philadelphia Police Officer that interrupted a home invasion robbery last year. In the article it makes a point of saying that the Officer was alone in his cruiser. Wuller was my Brother's partner and he was alone in his cruiser because my brother had taken leave to go to a car show at Carlisle with me. Wuller was named Officer of the year, honored all over the Country, got his choice of any assignment in the City, has received job offers, etc. My brother is all pissed off at me because he'd have been there if I hadn't talked him into going to Carlisle with me. :o

The point though is that he downed one guy, when a second attacker emerged from the kitchen, trying to kill him.

http://www.theiacp.org/awards/poloff/2006poyear.htm

In addition to a .357 with hollowpoints, I also keep this in a small box within arm’s reach of my bed. My genuine curiosity of what would happen if I actually used this is a more powerful driving force than any fear I have of someone breaking in. The perspective of this photo doesn’t do it justice. This thing is mean, and I don’t think anyone has been trained to defend against it for about 300 years…

Now all you need is a Japanese School Girl outfit and you will look like the assasin in Kill Bill II. :D

that is a disturbing image (the one of me in a dress, not the girl from Kill Bill)

We are a violent group, no?

And I am fine about it!

:cheers:

You mean like this.....


Brucelee: I think we are intouch with our realities. :)

I don't know that CJ was entirely wrong... someone just forgot the "3"...?

The .223 cartridge may display movement. Of course no one would mistake a .22 for a .223 but that would be my guess.

http://encycl.opentopia.com/term/5.56_x_45_mm_NATO

You are right about the .223 round, but I don't think CJ was talking about that one since he was referring to a pistol. Of course he does photoshop pictures to represent me in a dress, so who knows what he is thinking.

I know that we are all having fun with this thread, the truth is the past 2 nights I still can not sleep, my girlie is still checking the windows and doors non stop and she doesn't want a gun in the house but I think I might. If so, do I keep it in a safe next to my head? Do I keep it locked up in another part of the house, handgun? shotgun? Remember I am not trained and have no military backround.
how about a bazooka :)

I'll give you my opinion for what it's worth:

First, let it settle a bit. The incident is still very fresh. You'll calm down and so will your significant other. Then you can make a rational decision as to whether you really want a gun or not.

Assuming you decide you do, and assuming you want it solely for home protection, I'd recommend a .357 revolver with a 4" barrel. A revolver is basically foolproof. It won't jam like an automatic; there is no safety to remember; it's just point and shoot. The .357 is more powerful than a .38, but not ridiculous. I recommended a 4" because it will be a little more accurate than a 2" and will emit less muzzle flash. Muzzle flash will ruin your night vision putting you at an extreme disadvantage.

It's been a long time since I've carried a revolver, but I used to carry 158 grain jacketed hollow point ammunition. The hollow point part is the important part. When you hit an attacker with a hollow point round, it flattens out and expands to transfer the maximum amount of energy. The expansion causes it to stay in the attacker's body, meaning it won't come out the back, across the street and wing the paperboy.

As far as where to keep it, I guess it depends on your circumstances. I've made a few enemies in my life, (I know you guys find that hard to believe) so I have a few safely stashed in strategic locations. The most important thing is that you keep it out of the hands of children. I think you said you don't have any, but give careful consideration to the ones who may visit you. Kids have gun radar. No matter where you hide it, they will find it. I had an acquaintance who's little girl got her hands on his service weapon. Unfortunately, a child's thumb is it's strongest finger. She needed to use her thumb to be able to pull the trigger. To do that she had to point the weapon at her face. Her death was absolutely unbearable, so please, keep that foremost in your mind. I'm not familiar with your laws, but in Maryland all handguns sold must be sold with a trigger-lock. Get yourself one and use it, but also become intimately familiar with its operation so you can get the damn thing off should you need to. A safe is a good option, but you have to be able to get the gun out expediently should you need it.

I, unfortunately, have a weapon with me at all times (messes up the sleek lines of my Speedo). At night, I have a holster mounted to the back of my headboard. Should I need the weapon, I know right where it is and I can deploy it quickly. Should anyone else try to get it, they'd have to reach over me to do it. I'm not saying that's the best option, it just works for me.

The last thing is practice. If you buy a gun, practice with it often. Identify a range and become a regular. Find a good instructor and work with him/her. Shooting is very basic, but you need regular practice to become, and remain, proficient. Remember to practice retrieving your gun and also rendering it safe. That's just as important as learning to shoot it.

Good advice Griz. I am an avid shooter and keep about 5 guns in the house. Really, on saftey, you are right. If someone is going to look for a gun, they will probably find it. I keep all but one of my guns in a safe. The other is my home protection weapon that is next to the bed and loaded. I keep a Sig 229 with home protection ammo within reach. When we leave the home and know that it is possible for someone to come in, I use a locked trigger guard just to be safe.

If I had to recommend a gun for a home weapon only, I suppose a 12 gauge with some sort of bird round would be ok. This way, you can just point and click and not worry about sending bullets through your next door neighbors living room. Of course a revolver is dependable and easy to operate. I also keep a small mag-lite with the handgun so that I can see what I am aiming at in the dark!

Scary thought that I live in a super low crime area and still worry about someone breaking in. My wifes parents in Upstate NY dont even lock their doors at night...

Great advice Grizz, thanks for all your time on this one! :)

Personally, I would go with the sawed off due to my laziness and because I might panic and all. I THINK I could hold the trigger and pump the gun, pointing it in the general direction of the perp.

After 8 rounds, I think I might actually have hit him/her/them.

Who knows?

Grizz.. I love annapolis.. My sister lives there. I was there maybe 3 weeks back. As for practice, I would love it.. I have many friends that go to the range on a regular basis. I too live in a really low crime rate area. But still have this ish going on.. Thanks for the 70 something replies.. It gave us alot to think about. On a lighter note.. I want the imagine auto Super Charger :)

JAAY,

Next time you're down this way, give me a heads up. OhioBoxster is here this weekend. We were supposed to hook up for lunch today, but I got called in to work for an emergency that never materialized. I sat around the command post all day reading the 986forum. :mad:

Just finished reviewing the entire thread. Amazingly civil postings. Struck me that we are more alike than I suspected. If there are anti-gun people out there they are polite. Saw no flames. But a lot of good advice.

Also surprised with the long, interesting life of the thread.

Second thought was to reiterate an important principle: If you are not 100 % willing to use a gun, don't make one available to an intruder.

70 Sixter, the anti-gun movement was more vocal the last time we had a running shoot-out over handguns:

http://986forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5493&page=1&pp=40&highlight=handg un

The discussion got pretty heated and we were fortunate that no one was shot over the second amendment !

So true on the your last point. If you aren't going to use that gun, don't get it!