I read where the 2.7 motor blows up for no real reason...

[berj]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

You're probbably right, it's all just one big overreaction...

Jim, you know as well as I do that reports on these lists mean pretty much nothing in terms of percentages of owners having problems. I'd never say that this is not a problem; obviously it is. All I'm disputing is the numbers you're quoting. Nothing more.

So.. I'll ask again, more directly. Where does the '1 in 4' figure come from?

[berj]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

BTW- it is significant that my dealer can obtain a replacement engine from Porsche in 24 hours. Why do you suppose that these are so readily available?

Again, I don't dispute that this is a problem.. heck, thinking back I will be checking the oil stains in my parking space when I get back home next week -- I always thought they were old. My only interest is in figuring out what the probability of these failures are.

There's a difference between pointing out that there is a problem -- that's good -- and throwing a number like 25% failure rates around without any basis for it -- that's bad.

Berj

[z12358]

MNBoxster:
"You're probbably right, it's all just one big overreaction..."

What a well prepared list. Seems like "the issue" has earned a special "favorites" folder. For the sake of making a point, I assume you counted how many people posting on those forums had friends or neighbors experiencing catastrophic engine failures. 20? more?

Now "Jims" from those forums are probably going to post a link to this thread of ours thus proving once again to the gullible others there how bad things have really become. This issue is getting worse by the minute.

Z.

Originally Posted by Brucelee

BTW- it is significant that my dealer can obtain a replacement engine from Porsche in 24 hours. Why do you suppose that these are so readily available?

I can give you at least 2 reasons:

1) Good customer service
2) They don't require many engine replacements, so why not keep a couple handy in the USA for fast turn-around

Heck, when United or American or Delta need an engine, they fly one in on the next flight, and smack her in, in a couple hours. Does that mean GE makes poor engines because they can replace them quickly?

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by berj

Again, I don't dispute that this is a problem.. heck, thinking back I will be checking the oil stains in my parking space when I get back home next week -- I always thought they were old. My only interest is in figuring out what the probability of these failures are.

There's a difference between pointing out that there is a problem -- that's good -- and throwing a number like 25% failure rates around without any basis for it -- that's bad.

Berj

Hi,

Well since Porsche isn't talking, there can only be other sources. Various Polls have been conducted and while I concede that they are not by and large empirical, there is nevertheless some valuable information to be gleaned from them. Just because Porsche isn't talking doesn't mean the issue doesn't exists, or that it doesn't affect a significant number of cars.

Several other Forums have also conducted polls. One says 35%, our own says 25%-30%, and one in the UK states 40% but is including the 996 as well. All these seem too high to me.

Several months ago, I got a pair of Homeplate Seats for a Twins game. I called a friend of mine to invite him, but he said that he had a short meeting to attend and that I could come as his guest and we would proceed on to the game from there. Anyway, my friend works in Auto Sales, and the meeting was the TC Metro Auto Dealers Assn. My friend was being given an award for his work with a local Charity group which we are both involved in.

Anyway, the meeting began with a cocktail social. My buddy is busy working the room and I spot Doug Mulder, GM of one of the two Porsche Dealerships in town (Maplewood Imports) standing with another guy. I had met Doug on several occaisions and so I went over to say Hi. Doug introduced me to his guest, the local PCNA Area Rep. We chatted about Porsches in general, how the Cayman was selling, and such. Then the topic of warranty claims was brought up, so I told them that the RMS issue was getting a lot of press in the user forums, that several polls had been conducted and the results were around 30%, which I thought was too high. The Rep. said "it is, but close..." I asked 25%? and they both agreed "that's about right - 20%-25%..." Lacking any other source, this to me is the most Official data I have heard and this is why I use that figure.

Regardless of the actual statistic, the incidence is high, relatively speaking. Should Porsche ever decide to share their information, it would only indicate the extent of the problem, but would do nothing to solve it. Not until Porsche does a significant revamping of the M96 engine will the problem improve, not just a series of Band-Aid fixes or miracle new seals.

This will of course not benefit any of us, but future models will be immune. As a side note, there are now documented RMS failures on both the Cayman and the 997, so it appears the issue persists...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by z12358

MNBoxster:
"You're probbably right, it's all just one big overreaction..."

What a well prepared list. Seems like "the issue" has earned a special "favorites" folder. For the sake of making a point, I assume you counted how many people posting on those forums had friends or neighbors experiencing catastrophic engine failures. 20? more?

Now "Jims" from those forums are probably going to post a link to this thread of ours thus proving once again to the gullible others there how bad things have really become. This issue is getting worse by the minute.

Z.

Hi,

Not at all well-prepared, all I did was type Boxter RMS problem? in Yahoo's search engine and there were more than 25 pages of results, I only drew from the first 6 pages. You are trying to defend an indefensible position in the face of all the evidence, anecdotal or not. Can't wait to hear from you when your garage floor is covered with Mobil1...

Happy Motoring... Jim'99

[C5150]

Found a list from Consumer Reports (2005) featured on Yahoo Autos

Here's the link: http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerreports/article/best_and_worst_used_cars.html;_ylt=Ahbc7MKgto2K6dp GaZXjZIRrc78F


Don't want to stoke the fire one way or the other - but didn't see any Porsche on the WORST list. That said - I didn't see any Porsche on the BEST list either...

What I DID see was my Chevy Blazer - and I believe it - bit over $8K on repairs thus far... And now the pulse motor for the wipers is toast, and they go at whatever speed they choose - whenever they choose....

Still lovin' the box - C5150

[ohioboxster]

I think Jim made up those 25 pages in Yahoo's search engine just to fuel the conspiracy. Dont get me wrong Im not douting there are 25 pages regarding RMS I just think Jim authored them all ! Why, Jim Why?!

I asked my buddy today as a matter of fact about RMS issues on 911's. I said, "Chad, what do you know about rear main seals on 911's, how many leak?" Chad replied, "All of them" For the new guys, Chad owns a high end car lot in the Akron area.

I think he's lying and possibly in on the conspiracy.....bastard.

We were however talking about 2.7's blowing up though. Lets not get too far off base.

[JackG]

For clarity's sake, don't forget that Jim's conversation was about RMS issues, not failed engines. The 20-25% number includes cars that just had to have the rear main seal replaced, not the entire engine.

How many of those will leak again? Unknown.

How many of those were, or will be out of spec and need a replacement? Unknown.

It's obviously not every one, but some small percentage of that 1 in 4.

Point is, 25% do not have to have an engine replacement, at least not from any poll, measurement or hearsay anyone can point us to.

Here's to being in the 75%!!

[z12358]

MNBoxster:
Not at all well-prepared, all I did was type Boxter RMS problem? in Yahoo's search engine and there were more than 25 pages of results, I only drew from the first 6 pages.

Type in "Lexus engine problem" in Google. 2,040,000 entries. Have fun with it.

You are trying to defend an indefensible position in the face of all the evidence, anecdotal or not.

Perhaps you can also tell me what my position is? Please refer to my previous posts and pay special attention to "frequency and severity". And there is no such thing as anecdotal evidence. Especially not in a world when THIS thread can be used as "evidence" by Jims on other forums.

Can't wait to hear from you when your garage floor is covered with Mobil1...

Geez, Jim. Wouldn't that be the ultimate proof and happy ending for you. Me wrong and miserable -- you, right and happy. I'll see what I can do.

Z.

[z12358]

Sammy:
They are providing the right product to a specific market that allows them to maintain their profit margins (granted I don't even know if this is true or not so if you have some stats that would be awesome!).

I just found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche :
"The company has been highly successful in recent times, and indeed claims to be the most profitable car company in the world (in terms of profit margin per unit sold; its absolute profits would be dwarfed by Toyota) [2]."

Here's another quote from it:
"Porsche was awarded the 2006 J.D. Power award for highest initial quality of automobile brands."

Now Wikipedia may be as good as a post in a forum (lack of sources, citations, etc.) but I've read about the highest profit margin claim elsewhere and seems that it's widely accepted.

Z.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by bmussatti

I can give you at least 2 reasons:

1) Good customer service
2) They don't require many engine replacements, so why not keep a couple handy in the USA for fast turn-around

Heck, when United or American or Delta need an engine, they fly one in on the next flight, and smack her in, in a couple hours. Does that mean GE makes poor engines because they can replace them quickly?

This may all be true. However, my service advisor told me otherwise without telling me so.

If you get my meaning.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by C5150

Found a list from Consumer Reports (2005) featured on Yahoo Autos

Here's the link: http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerreports/article/best_and_worst_used_cars.html;_ylt=Ahbc7MKgto2K6dp GaZXjZIRrc78F


Don't want to stoke the fire one way or the other - but didn't see any Porsche on the WORST list. That said - I didn't see any Porsche on the BEST list either...

What I DID see was my Chevy Blazer - and I believe it - bit over $8K on repairs thus far... And now the pulse motor for the wipers is toast, and they go at whatever speed they choose - whenever they choose....

Still lovin' the box - C5150

That may be true. However, if memory serves, Porsche is #61 or so on the JD Powers 3 yr customer satisfaction survey.

Not good but of course, not definitive.

[Brucelee]

Here's another quote from it:
"Porsche was awarded the 2006 J.D. Power award for highest initial quality of automobile brands.

See my reference above on LONG TERM JD Powers data.

[Brucelee]

OK.

Lets see if we can bring this to an end.

Here is what we know.

The factory will never acknowledge design flaws yet these are well documented in pro-Porsche magazines like Panorama. I have NOT SEEN credible evidence to refute these two design issues. If so, please post.

There is clearly an RMS issue which MAY or MAY NOT be rectified in the latest batch of engines. This RMS issue is legend among both 996 and 986 owners. Some 987 owners have reported this issue also.

We DO KNOW that the factory has issue several new seals in response to the RMS issue. The last one, the Cayeene fix, MAY be working although my tech says it may not be also.

There is clearly an IMS problem that grenades the motor WHEN it appears. Number of these is unknown. This forum has reported a handful to date.

We do not have any factory data on ANY of this.

JD Powers surveys indicate that Porsches start out pleasing their owners and drop very quickly by the end of three years.

Any other things we can agree on?

[Sammy]

Geez... I have got to stop going to sleep and keep up with all the posts!

Z, thanks for the reminder about the Boxsters styling! The Carerra is pretty but the drop top version just doesn't look right to me...

Back to the topic at hand, I would imagine that my perspective is different than someone with a newer vehicle who's warranty period still remains. It's easy to sit back and say that this isn't a problem if you know that your newer Boxster is sitting in the garage and if an engine failure happens you simply take it back to the dealer and have it fixed (no offense to these people and I hope you understand my point). Us older Boxster owners don't have that luxury. Even with an extended warranty you have to read the fine print and if you have to make a claim of this size it can be like pulling teeth.

I will commend the people that have brought actual figures to the table (estimates or not) because they are the best thing we have to use.

I'm not worried about a RMS leak as a $1k repair isn't crazy in todays world. I'm concerned about the catastrophic engine failure that costs $12k+ to repair. High frequency or not, it is a known design problem that has blown up some engines potentially costing the customer lots of money. This is not a high mileage or abuse issue, this is a design flaw.

I think this is an issue that can't be overlooked by perspective or current owners. Unfortunately it will mean people will buy extended warranties because of a poor design.

Anybody have a Ford Pinto for sale???

[Sammy]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

OK.

Lets see if we can bring this to an end.

Here is what we know.

The factory will never acknowledge design flaws yet these are well documented in pro-Porsche magazines like Panorama. I have NOT SEEN credible evidence to refute these two design issues. If so, please post.

There is clearly an RMS issue which MAY or MAY NOT be rectified in the latest batch of engines. This RMS issue is legend among both 996 and 986 owners. Some 987 owners have reported this issue also.

We DO KNOW that the factory has issue several new seals in response to the RMS issue. The last one, the Cayeene fix, MAY be working although my tech says it may not be also.

There is clearly an IMS problem that grenades the motor WHEN it appears. Number of these is unknown. This forum has reported a handful to date.

We do not have any factory data on ANY of this.

JD Powers surveys indicate that Porsches start out pleasing their owners and drop very quickly by the end of three years.

Any other things we can agree on?

I was typing as you posted this so I'll shut up now...

Great debate and information!

Originally Posted by Brucelee

OK.

Lets see if we can bring this to an end.

Here is what we know.

The factory will never acknowledge design flaws yet these are well documented in pro-Porsche magazines like Panorama. I have NOT SEEN credible evidence to refute these two design issues. If so, please post.

There is clearly an RMS issue which MAY or MAY NOT be rectified in the latest batch of engines. This RMS issue is legend among both 996 and 986 owners. Some 987 owners have reported this issue also.

We DO KNOW that the factory has issue several new seals in response to the RMS issue. The last one, the Cayeene fix, MAY be working although my tech says it may not be also.

There is clearly an IMS problem that grenades the motor WHEN it appears. Number of these is unknown. This forum has reported a handful to date.

We do not have any factory data on ANY of this.

JD Powers surveys indicate that Porsches start out pleasing their owners and drop very quickly by the end of three years.

Any other things we can agree on?

Brucelee, you are obviously very successful and competent at selling Porsche products through your dealership. Yet, you know there is an intrinsic design flaw with the engines. How are you able to balance these two conflicting dynamics? What do you actually tell your customers, if they ask or not (about potential problems)?

Thanks.

[z12358]

Here's what we know:

1. RMS is more frequent than IMS but less severe.

2. IMS is less frequent than RMS but more severe.

3. We know nothing about HOW frequent either of them are.

4. ALL "issues" during the warranty years MUST be producing waranty claims small enough to allow Porsche to keep highest profit margins in the industry.

5. Beyond the warranty years, unless third-party Extended Warranties for Porsches are multiples of times more expensive than those for other brands, ALL "issues" in aggregate couldn't possibly be that much worse than what is expected from other brands.

The free market is the greatest aggregator of data and the best indicator of trends.

Rich, freedom -- learn from it.

Z.

[Sammy]

Originally Posted by z12358

Here's what we know:

1. RMS is more frequent than IMS but less severe.

2. IMS is less frequent than RMS but more severe.

3. We know nothing about HOW frequent either of them are.

4. ALL "issues" during the warranty years MUST be producing waranty claims small enough to allow Porsche to keep highest profit margins in the industry.

5. Beyond the warranty years, unless third-party Extended Warranties for Porsches are multiples of times more expensive than those for other brands, ALL "issues" in aggregate couldn't possibly be that much worse than what is expected from other brands.

The free market is the greatest aggregator of data and the best indicator of trends.

Rich, freedom -- learn from it.

Z.

Aww shoot... my bad Brucelee...

4) I don't think anyone has ever questioned this one. Profit margin is a function of a whole lot of things and is not some sort of magic indicator of quality. Porsche has a business case that works and no one is questioning this. Yes, we understand your point that if this was a widespread issue than Porsche would be out of business. If this was a widespread problem yes, they would not be profitable. If you looked at the profit margins for Ford when their big SUV's dominated the market you would be shocked! They made a killing in that market, but do you think its because they had some sort of magic formula for low warranty costs?

Once again, no one would argue that if this was a widespread problem that Porsche would not be profitable.

BTW - What is the profit margin that you are referring to? You keep talking about it, but what is the figure or range and where did you get it from?