IMS Replacement Strategy

[thom4782]

Hi everyone:

I'd like your advice. My 01S has $120K on the odometer and it's time to replace the clutch. While it's being done, I have a question on which IMS option to choose. Here's why I'm asking.

I've changed the oil at 5,000 mile intervals since I bought the car with 10K miles on the dial. At 100K, four changes ago, I found one small shinny non-metallic flake in the filter. It was 1/8" or smaller in diameter. Since then all of the changes have been clean, that hasn't been any visual evidence of metal in the oil stream. I am not considering an engine rebuild at this point, just an IMS replacement. I'm aware of the risk, but that's a chance I'm willing to take.

So here's my question. Assuming price of the part isn't a concern, would you recommend replacing my single row IMS with a Gen 2 Pro or the IMS Solution. The difference as I see it is that the Gen 2 is an unsealed design which may become damaged and fail completely if metal flakes show up in the future. In contrast, I'm guessing that the Solution would fair better because of its plain bearing design and the engine wouldn't self destruct due to a collapsed bearing if the Solution became worn.

Thanks

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by thom4782

Hi everyone:

I'd like your advice. My 01S has $120K on the odometer and it's time to replace the clutch. While it's being done, I have a question on which IMS option to choose. Here's why I'm asking.

I've changed the oil at 5,000 mile intervals since I bought the car with 10K miles on the dial. At 100K, four changes ago, I found one small shinny non-metallic flake in the filter. It was 1/8" or smaller in diameter. Since then all of the changes have been clean, that hasn't been any visual evidence of metal in the oil stream. I am not considering an engine rebuild at this point, just an IMS replacement. I'm aware of the risk, but that's a chance I'm willing to take.

So here's my question. Assuming price of the part isn't a concern, would you recommend replacing my single row IMS with a Gen 2 Pro or the IMS Solution. The difference as I see it is that the Gen 2 is an unsealed design which may become damaged and fail completely if metal flakes show up in the future. In contrast, I'm guessing that the Solution would fair better because of its plain bearing design and the engine wouldn't self destruct due to a collapsed bearing if the Solution became worn.

Thanks

The answer to your question depends upon where you head is at; if you plan to keep the car for a long time, the Solution (which is the only permanent fix) would be the choice, if you plan to only keep the car for a few years, the Pro (which has to be periodically replaced) would make more sense.

We have a 2001 car in the shop right now that has less than 12K miles on it and looks like it just rolled off the show room floor. The owner, who bought it new and keeps his cars a long time, did not hesitate for jump for the higher priced solution when the car was done, and I agree with his choice.

One other point to remember with your car is that you may also have a dual row OEM bearing, which further narrows your choices, but also tends to be the least problem prone style bearing.

[Jake Raby]

If you have material in the oil, neither product should be applied. I'd drop the sump plate and inspect for any debris before making further considerations. The sump plate is the window to the soul of this engine, it will hold debris that won't be found anywhere else.

The IMS Solution does have a better chance of surviving through foreign object debris contaminated oil, because it's design offers just filtered oil and the spin on filter adaptor is filtering 100% of the oil 100% of the time, not just for the IMS Solution, but also for the remainder of the engine.

The design of the IMS Solution will only allow it to be damaged in the same manner as the main and rod bearings ion the engine, in regard to foreign object debris. That means that the IMS Solution will be taken out by debris much like the remainder of the plain bearings in the engine and is not as sensitive to contamination debris.

During development we purposely introduced contaminated oil into an engine fitted with the IMS Solution and did this with the filter and also without the filter. In both scenarios all that happened to the IMS Solution was some scoring, but it kept operating unscathed without any rattles or noises. The engine ended up failing from a #3 and #6 rod bearing failure during that test due to the heavy amount of both ferromagnetic and non- ferromagnetic debris that was dumped into it during the test.

Yes, we develop things by blowing them up, and I love every minute of it.

BUT, again.. If the engine fails a pre- qualification, then neither of the products should be applied until corrective action is taken. The engine is guilty until proven innocent during a sump inspection.

If you find metal in the oil, feel free to retrofit it, but please use a competing product and make sure that you post the results later :-)

[mikefocke]

Some other questions whose answers may lead you in one direction or another.

What experience does your installer have with either the Pro or the Solution?

What specialized IMS replacement tools does your installer have?

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Some other questions whose answers may lead you in one direction or another.

What experience does your installer have with either the Pro or the Solution?

What specialized IMS replacement tools does your installer have?

Very good points… Especially on the Pro, because it's installation requires my Faultless Tool. That tool is far from cheap.

More and more shops have abandoned the standard single row after installing their first Pro kit using the Faultless Tool. Sales of the Pro have tripled since May and sales of the classic single row have plummeted by the same amount, which has driven the price of the classic single row up for September and beyond.

We've sold hundreds of Faultless Tools thus far, a good chunk of the shops now have them in their specialty tool box. Once they see how well it works, and how it does everything, they understand why its not cheap.

[thom4782]

Thanks Jake, JFP and Mike.

Your advice was very helpful. In particular, the suggestion to inspect the sump before deciding any course of action was great.

If I had a clear idea how long I planned to keep the car, I'd be sending the engine off for a rebuild - no question about it. But, I'm undecided so I am approaching this piecemeal and keeping my fingers crossed.

Finding a shop in the SF Bay are with Gen 2 Pro or Solution experience is challenging. The indie where the car is serviced now has replaced many dual and single row bearings with IMS Retrofits. This would be its first time with the Gen 2 or Solution. If I do go down one path or the other, the Faultless tool will be a requirement on my part for the job.

If you do know of a shop in my area that has experience, please let me know,

Again, thanks

[flaps10]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Very good points… Especially on the Pro, because it's installation requires my Faultless Tool. That tool is far from cheap.

More and more shops have abandoned the standard single row after installing their first Pro kit using the Faultless Tool. Sales of the Pro have tripled since May and sales of the classic single row have plummeted by the same amount, which has driven the price of the classic single row up for September and beyond.

We've sold hundreds of Faultless Tools thus far, a good chunk of the shops now have them in their specialty tool box. Once they see how well it works, and how it does everything, they understand why its not cheap.

Jake,
Do you keep a list of shops which have your tools and some experience using them? It might help some of us plan a visit to an indy shop we can trust for this task. The job task doesn't frighten me, but the cost of the tools would offset any labor savings by having a shop do the task (other than I'd be in there doing clutch and RMS at the same time).

I'm in the Seattle/Tacoma area and would appreciate a pointer to a shop that does good work for a fair price.

[Jake Raby]

We have just invited Euro Trends to become an IMS Solution Certified Installer in the bay area. They are in the evaluation stages now, having recently completed both my 16 hour WTI class and the 32 hour hands on courses.

If they pass my evaluation, they'll be Certified Installers in around 4-6 weeks.

Jake,
Do you keep a list of shops which have your tools and some experience using them? It might help some of us plan a visit to an indy shop we can trust for this task. The job task doesn't frighten me, but the cost of the tools would offset any labor savings by having a shop do the task (other than I'd be in there doing clutch and RMS at the same time).

I'm in the Seattle/Tacoma area and would appreciate a pointer to a shop that does good work for a fair price.

No, doing so would be a recommendation. We've learned to never give recommendations, because more than once I've been held responsible for someone else's inability to meet the customers expectations following a recommendation.

I have learned to only recommend myself, because what happens under my roof is the only place that I have control, and where we know it will be done the proper way. Its done the proper way, because I invented the procedure. Thats why we have cars shipped from all over the US and Canada for my version of the IMS Retrofit.

[mikefocke]

Tool cost can be easily offset somewhat by selling off the tools to the next person wanting to do the job. I've even heard of folks renting the set for a big refundable deposit but a reasonable fee.

Ask via PCA who are the good shops in the area and then ask those shops how much experience they have and what specific tools and classes they have attended.

I've often said I don't want to be the first patient the doctor does the heart operation on. (said as one who had a botched minor operation this year.)

[flaps10]

Jake,
I can respect your viewpoint on not supplying a recommendation.

I just finished reading several pages across two forums that include discussion of IMS and your efforts. Thanks for the work you've done.

I'm a new owner who is looking at doing a clutch (replacing hydraulics hasn't cured a difficulty I'm having engaging first and reverse, so now it's time to drop the tranny and learn the truth).

My engine is well past the mileage I've read you recommend an IMSR, but I also don't know the history of the car other than it currently runs great.

I'm going to take up Mikef's suggestion and hook up with some locals to see who might rent me the tools to install. It's time I know where I'm at rather than just hope it's good.

[Jake Raby]

Honestly we find most mistakes are made by seasoned veterans of the IMSR. Why? Because they learn that they can cut corners and get away with it, then do the job faster and make more money.

I'd take an attentive first timer any day over a guy thats done 50. Here we treat every one like the very first one that I ever did.

[Xpit77]

Had my 99 tip done a few weeks ago. 133 kms. I`ve only owned the car for a few months and couldn`t confirm if it had been done The bearing was still intact but the tech said the grease was drying out and it was only a matter of time. New LN and rear main good to go.

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Honestly we find most mistakes are made by seasoned veterans of the IMSR. Why? Because they learn that they can cut corners and get away with it, then do the job faster and make more money.

I'd take an attentive first timer any day over a guy thats done 50. Here we treat every one like the very first one that I ever did.

Disturbing to read. I've found nearby (30 min drive) a shop that's an approved installer of the LNE Retrofit bearing that I had planned to use. Now you suggest I ask how many they've done and, if they say 50 or more, I should tell them, "Sorry. Won't be bringing my Boxster to you---that's way too many."

This is frustrating advice indeed, Jake.

[Nmbrsix]

I think LN may have changed their policy since Jake commented in this thread back in 2014. Their site now lists LN-approved installers.

My Single Row Pro was installed by an LN recommended installer in my area.

[Bootlegger]

Frodo, I can share where I had my 04 SE done with outstanding results. IM me if interested. This Indie has been qualified and certified by Flat Six (JR).

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Frodo

Disturbing to read. I've found nearby (30 min drive) a shop that's an approved installer of the LNE Retrofit bearing that I had planned to use. Now you suggest I ask how many they've done and, if they say 50 or more, I should tell them, "Sorry. Won't be bringing my Boxster to you---that's way too many."

This is frustrating advice indeed, Jake.

Is the shop a Preferred Installer on the LN site (just a paid advertisement), or is the shop an IMS Solution Certified Installer? These Certified Installers are the only shops that have been trained, evaluated, and must conform to a Code Of Conduct.

That said, the act of doing something over and over again means nothing to us. We find that the more bearings a shop does, the more corners they learn to cut, and the least disciplined they become. This job isn't about speed, its about attention to detail, and proficiency, along with situational awareness.

Choose wisely, and the real question you should be asking (rather than how many have you done) is:

-Please explain your pre- qualification process thats carried out before the IMS Retrofit.

-Have you ver replaced an IMS Bearing that was already in the process of failure?

-How long does the IMS Retrofit procedure take to complete?

-Do you always change the oil when doing the IMS Retrofit procedure, or do you pour the old oil back in?

These are three keys to grade the shop's ethics...

Too many shops treat this like doing a brake job, they jam it out and don;t give a damn about the health of the engine otherwise.

trust me, I have seen it all... And its not getting better. The more people learn the corner cutting, the more haphazard the procedures have become.