First HPDE in my 986 - next mod?
 

I ran my first HPDE in my new 01 986 S this weekend, and she felt fantastic. I'm very impressed with the cars overall balance and dynamics. I spent the whole weekend just getting acquainted with how she felt around RRR. I was lucky enough to meet another forum member, Steved0x, and got to talk with him. Thanks for all the info Steve!

So my question is what's a good first mod to help carry more speed for my next DE?

I'm basically bone stock with the exception of Motul 600 brake fluid, and Hankook R-S3's. I've ordered some EBC yellow pads, which will go on before my next track day. I'd like to stick to just one mod at a time between DE's to get it dialed in...so adjustable sways? springs? Techno Brace? or ????

Thanks in advance.

invest in more DE events. If the car is safe and reliable- better ROI on more seat time and experience

your skills have more to do with your performance at this point. Changing things will only serve as a distraction- and frankly you can screw things up- creating problems that don't exist and then spending $$$ and countless hours trying to sort it out-- all while you've yet to develop the experience to appreciate the changes being made.

safety issues: good quality brake pads, brake fluid. Are brakes performing ok- are you experiencing brake fade? Suspect not if you are using Motul.

street pads will not hold up for track use- once you are progressed past "first time" DE. Advice: talk to Clark at Apexperformance.net - let him make recommendations based on your anticipated usage. (just did that with him on mine last week-- and I've been doing track events/racing for 30 years)

Do not change spring rates, shocks, sway bars etc. Save your money right now. Safety equipment is priority over performance equipment.

When you can detect changes in how the car performs lap to lap by adjusting the air pressure a couple of pounds-- you're not wise to be buying bolt on goodies.

priority of spending:
1. making car safe & reliable.
2. More experience (seat time).
3. Tires. Tires are MOST important piece of performance equipment on the car.

Might not be what you want to hear- but I've just saved you thousands of dollars and lots of frustration.

Learn to drive what you got, and get teh most out of it. Suggest maybe investing a few bucks in Ross Bentley's book on performance driving. He has a night weekly email too.

good luck.

Shiny side up. Keep it on the black surface.

Getting a race seat and harnesses helped me a lot, it lets me feel the car more, especially in my shoulders, and not have to hold on so hard and brace with my legs. Also for me I needed a little extra headroom to keep my helmet from pushing on the ceiling.

GT3 front brake ducts are an inexpensive easy/fun mod :)

I learned the hard way this weekend not to make too drastic of a change all at once. I didn't crash so that's good :)

+1 for Clark and Linda at Apex, they are good people and I get a lot of my stuff through them. They are at a lot of events so things like brake fluid (I like ATE) I just get some at the track and save shipping.

Really good to meet you too.

Steve

Nice!

You are now on very slippery slope LOL

The single best mod you can make is to the driver. Get as much seat time as you can and keep getting instructors/coaches for a while.

You should also do as many autocross' as you can as they are just about the single best thing to improve your car control skills. Also look and see if your local PCA or POC does a PDS (Performance Driving School) its not a racing school, but will give you the opportunity to better find where your and your cars limits are. Trust Me , you are far below the cars limits (Me too :) )

I have been tracking my DD 04 986S for over a year now and am keeping it very bone stock, even though there is a bit of pressure(?) from my PCA club members to go into a prepared class.

I switched to EBC Yellow right before my last track weekend at the Ca Festival of Speed at the Autoclub speedway. 1/2 the course was on the NASCAR SuperSpeedway and the other 1/2 was a road course in the infield. Almost too much fun! The YellowStuff worked great and I was very happy with them, no fade, great stopping power even going from 120 to 35 into a corner.

Motul 600 is a fine brake fluid for your use. ATE 200 is good as well and 1/2 the cost. I switched to Motul 600 this year. Invest in a Motive Power Bleeder, get the one with the metal cap, its worth the few extra $$. It will save you a ton of time bleeding or flushing the brakes and you need to bleed them before every track event and change at least once a year

Tires are probably the only other "mod" you want to look at right now. Rs-3's a pretty good choice, with a few other tires that might be a better choice such as Bridgestone Re-71's

I would look to get a 2nd set of wheels in 17" for track and AX use. A couple of reasons to go with 17" wheels. The number 1 reason, tires cost less in 17" than in 18". I am running 225/45-17 front and 255/40-17 rear on stock wheels

Maybe different brake pads as well for street use as the Yellows may squeal a bit and are dusty. I have EBC RedStuff for my DD pads

I would stay away from suspension mods for the time being, other than maybe putting a Porsche M030 sport suspension. It also may depend a bit on what class you want to run in. At least under our regional PCA rules, you can only do things that were available as a factory or dealer installed factory option for USA spec cars if you want to stay in a street stock class. If you do the M030 suspension, be aware there are 2 versions USA spec and ROW and the ROW may not be "legal"for s stock class.

Get a decent alignment
My recommendation is get as much neg camber front an are rear as you can get. Probuby it will max out at around .8 or .9 deg front and around 1.8 in the back
no toe in the front and a smidge in the back
YMMV

All in all the best way to carry more speed is to keep you foot on the skinny pedal and off the small one. The more your drive on the track , the faster you will get as you learn that you can push your car more than you expected and your cajones get bigger

Good advice!

Are you near NCCAR in NC? That track has got what looks like some nice sweepers that look made for learning some major car control :) I have never been but it looks very interesting...

Thanks for all the advice everybody! I've been doing HPDE for a few years, but this was my first in the Boxster. I didn't make that clear. However, I'm definitely hearing that it might be worth it to stay stock for a season anyway. I like that plan.

I do have the 17 wheels, with 225 front 255 rears, and am loving the R-S3's so far. I also have put in the Brey-Krause roll bar...forgot to mention, but think that'll help with the safety part.

After reading everybody's advice, maybe I'll go with seats and harness first. As Steved0x mentioned. My wrists, forearms, and shoulders are killing me. I'm a small guy anyway, so I really have to put the death grip on the wheel to hold myself in place. And maybe I'll do that brake cooling mod, too.

I am near NCCAR and do plan on running there this season. I'm going to CMP in a few weeks and will prob run there a lot...and VIR (my fav) -also hoping to get to Summit point and Road Atlanta.

What tire pressures are you running? I started stock 29 psi front and 36 psi rear, and then added a few psi to the front to stay above the wear arrows on the tires. I think hot I was 35 front and 42 rear.http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1462231771.jpg
Here I am on my maiden voyage

I like to run hot 36/38 front/back on that same tire, I can't find my sheets from last October dang it but when I get the tire pressures right the car really feels good and it corresponds with my best times. Getting over 40 and it gets really greasy, and too low and you run over the sidewall marker and running low can cause more friction and (i heard) can oddly cause your tears really to overheat and increase pressure and make you think.you need to bleed more. I made that mistake before :)

I generally start at 32/34 cold and adjust from there

The best advice I can offer is to invest in track time and coaching until you can out drive your stock car. Then start making upgrades to the car. A stock Boxster has an incredible amount of capability that you need to learn to untap. With a more capable car, the hill is just that much higher and can impede progress.

And everything that you learn to drive a stock Boxster well will pay off in whatever car you might drive in the future. I see SO many drivers in much higher HP cars on the race track that really should go back and learn the basics of performance driving. They use the high HP as a crutch to make up for poor fundamental track skills. Don't be that guy. Instead, be the guy who can post a faster lap time than a guy in a Cayman with 50 more HP. That will make you feel REALLY good!

The only exception that I would mention is if you wanted to get a racing seat and harnesses. This will improve your learning curve since you can concentrate on driving and not expend so much energy just trying to stay in the seat. Realize that you'll also need a HANS device if you go this route (with your body fully strapped in, your head/neck is now the weakest link).

How do you know when you're better than the car? Your lap times will be near or at the top of your class. Maybe you have a track record in your stock class. It will start to be obvious if you're really at that point.

This is why after two seasons of racing, I am still in a Spec Boxster as I am still not better than the car. My lap times are still 1.0-1.5 sec's behind the fastest drivers and I don't have any BSR wins and no track records (I have two in Stock and BSX). At some point, I hope to reach those goals and then I'll consider moving to a faster race car.

Thanks again everybody for all the advice. I will stick to tire pressure, racing seat, harness and hans device for now with EBC Yellow pads.

What's everyone's opinion on something like the techno-brace??

Hello Barchetta,

agree with the others. Best invest is track time.

And it's also very important to have a good sitting position and driving is as comfortable as it can be in a sports car. So if there is anything that can improve that, i would do it and invest some money.

I would also invest in a good mechanical maintenance and safety of the car. But i would not invest in big performance upgrades, because in general this will need a lot of experience to do it right and also it will cost a lot of money to do it.

Happy racing from Germany
Markus

I have one, and while I am not a good enough driver to be able to tell if it is helping or not, last week when I was putting it all back together and was putting on the sheet metal brace, I was really happy for the technobrace because it held the two sides of the chassis/suspension at the right place for me to just easily slip on the brace. The first time I took the brace off, I had a hard time getting it on and had to use a rubber mallet. Some folks have had to put a strap and winch the two sides together to get it to fit.

There is a thread on here somewhere with some DIY instructions for making one yourself and some favorable reports on how it affected the handling. I am not good with drilling and cutting and grinding so I just got the technobrace. It was fairly easy to install, I had to undo the rear sway bar mounts and one of the lower drop links to get it installed.

Steve

Get the M030 suspension if it is still available. You may have to call the dealer in Oregon and have it shipped to your indy. I got it from them for around 1200. Installation isn't cheap, but do a full alignment and corner balance

sorry for hijacking the thread :D
but i have a quick question for you guys with more experience. it's not a "which one is the best tire?" question i swear!

i have some Hankook Ventus RS3s on the back(stock size) and i need to put a pair of the Ventus on the front.
turns out stock size 205/50 ZR17 DOESNT EXIST for this tire model but tire rack does have 225/45R17.

i see some of you guys put these on the front. is there any major difference or disadvantage? i guess more grip on the front which isnt a bad thing.

first track day in the Boxster coming up in July so i need to get this sorted along with a more aggressive alignment setup. screw longevity, i want grip and handling! i know some of you guys shared your setups so i'll be a copy cat :dance:

appreciate any help on the tire questions!

Cristian

With the 7" rim the sidewall will flex a lot I guess :/

I run that same tire on those same sizes and same sized rims, I love it. 225/45/17, go for it! If your tire mounter whines about the stiff sidewall and width of the tire and wheel tell them to suck it up :) That is an approved wheel width for that tire according to tire rack.

Other extreme 200TW tires are faster (and more expensive... Rival-S, RE71R - I have heard many reports they are faster than Nitto Nt01 and other 100TW "R" compounds, albeit only for a few laps until they pass their optimum heat range - they heat up very quickly which makes them great for autocross and time trials) but they heat up quicker and wear out waaay faster, the R-S3 loves heat and lasts a long time, and in my opinion is a good "First" HPDE track tire.

I like to run mine 36 hot in front and 38 hot in rear, which means checking the temp before a session, then immediately after, and noting the delta, then before your next session checking again and seeing if you need to bleed a little out as the day heats up. Caution - don't bleed out too much and go out with underinflated tires. Once you get it right there is minimal bleeding involved, usually after the first session or two in the morning. And don't forget to add some back in at the end of the day before driving home, *or* for sure check them the next morning after they have sat all night...

If they get over 40 hot they will feel greasy and you will slide around a lot. Run them too low and you will tear them up, especially the outer edges.

I like to start at 32F/34R and see how it goes throughout the day.

Great HPDE tire :)

Mr Steve! thanks for input! its great to hear it from someone running the same setup! :)

i am going to order them. indeed tire rack says they are an approved tire for the wheels.

i am very excited to take the box out there and have some fun! i havent done an HPDE since i had my S2000 but that car always scared me a bit. i feel my confidence will be greater in the Boxster, especially after a few autocross events that i've done.

this one is in Palm Beach in July and i want to work my way up to Sebring, that's going to be a challenging track that i've never done.

i think i am on the slippery slope.. but hey might as well do it now before marriage and kids :D

If you can wait for RE-71's to be available, they are a better tire than Rs-3's. Also look at Dunlop Direzza Star Spec's.. 225/45-7 front and 255/40-17 rear is a good setup on stock wheels. The extra width in the front helps reduce understeer

They are all pretty much the same $ and there is a $70 rebate on Bridgestone tires this month. At Costco, they do it as an instant rebate

hey Steve what do you recommend as far as alignment goes? i want to go with something a bit more aggressive like JayG was mentioning on this thread.

what's your setup?

Jay thanks a lot! already put the order in for the RS3s and i think it's a good start. once i get through these i will look at other options and most likely try something new. i'm just starting out so I appreciate any info you more experienced guys throw my way.

When I was on stock suspension, I got the setup from this board, which was:

Max out neg camber in the front (around -1.0)
Leave the back where it was, which seems to be around -1.6 from the factory
No toe in, in the front (may make it wander a little bit for street driving and require more attentiveness, but I never noticed any)
A little toe in the back, like 3mm (whatever that means? :) ) They may have to change your rear camber a little to get this dialed in.

Make sure both sides are the same. They will do that if you ask.

That was the best feeling setup I had, once I started fiddling and adding parts the complexity went up a lot... Blah...

sounds like a good starting point!
i will set it up like that and see how it feels. baby steps.. :)

thanks for input!

You could get a set of these, Pirelli Trofeo R, 60 TW, N0 Porsche rated:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=P+Zero+Trofeo +R&frontTire=245YR7P0TRN0&rearTire=54YR7P0TRN0&veh icleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

$782 a set.

I wonder how long they last...

reviews say not that long once you take them to the track.
and after you wear them a little they will probably completely suck in the rain which is a problem with the heavy summer rain in Miami where entire lakes form on the roads.

but still that's a damn good price for Pirellis! :D

What tire you uses is also somewhat determined by what car class you are running in
For example, in PCA stock classes, you can't run a tire below 140 TW
If you are running in a prepared class, it may be a matter of performance points as well

RS3's are going on the front today so i will have a complete set all around. Yaay! :D

will do a break flush with Motul 600 tomorrow and an alignment sometime next week.

i was thinking.. i should be fine for a first time with the street pads right? they are only around 3.000 miles old all around.
or do i REALLY need track pads like EBC?

i know it depends on my driving style and this first time around i will be focusing on car control, being smooth and getting a good race line, i wont mash the breaks in each corner that's for sure.

what do you guys think?

I ran my first few track days on the stock pads and they were fine. Then at Road Atlanta I used up about half of my fronts in one event , and I also melted my front brake sensors, and a brake light came on as I was braking into turn 10A going down the hill after the back straight. I *knew* I had plenty of brake pad but I still pitted to visually check them all. After that I moved to the EBC Red and also ditched the sensors (cut the wires and taped the ends together)

If your pads are newish and greater than 50% you would most likely be fine, once pads get below 50% they can allow a lot more heat into the braking system, and also they heat up more which can cause them to wear more quickly.

EBC Red is a good dual street/intro track pad, but when this current set wears out I am moving up to something else (Yellow?) since I don't do much street driving anymore.

I've never been to PBIR so I don't know if it has a reputation for being hard on brakes.

Have fun! Take pictures and make a report when you get back!

thanks for the tip Steve!
i will stick with the street pads and move to EBC Red maybe when they go out. at that time i would prob also need new rotors.

do the EBC Reds make a lot of dust and noise on regular street driving?

track day is in July so still a while to go but trying to get prepared because i will be in Mexico with work for a month soon.

will have my GoPro mounted and everything when the day comes so you guys can see what an amateur i am :D

I would use 50% as the metric for when to replace your street pads if you are going to take them on the track. Once they get under 50% the rate of wear goes up very fast and you could find yourself out of brakes while at an event.



Not really, sometimes they will squeal a very little bit but it is minor and usually getting on it a little will solve it. dust.... since I mostly drive on the track, my wheels usually look like this:

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1463165736.jpg

Then I wash them and they stay pretty clean until the next time...


I don't recall whether it was bad on street driving but I don't think it was.


Yeah! Videos are great!

I was running stock pads last year, very dusty and faded fast. I'm on Redstuff now. They don't seem to be too dusty on street use, but I have some track time coming up so we'll see!

One thing that may surprise you if you have never been to a car control clinic or an HPDE, is the brakes on our cars, they will pull out the false teeth of an unwary passenger if they are not careful.

I thought I was braking hard, near the threshold, and my instructor at this event, Al, a dentist that drive a 996 Turbo, took me down the back straight at road Atlanta, made sure there was nobody behind me, and told me to really get on the brakes and activate the ABS. I didn't push hard enough, next lap we tried again, and then I finally got into the ABS and it was a lot harder than I recall (this was on 200 TW Hankook R-S3, compared with my Sumitomo HTR Z III summer tires, that were easier to get into ABS). It was astounding. I "thought" I was braking hard/threshold braking up to that point... but there was more to be had.

The event in question was the same one I referred to earlier when I was still on the OEM stock pads. These cars are very capable.

Steve

i got the new rubber on the front and took it to my usual places where i could push them hard. boy what a positive difference the 225 make on the front! i know it's partly the tire as well not just the size, i had 205 Michelin Pilot Sport on the front before and while not bad, very much a street tire.

the RS3's on 225 gives very solid steering feel when pushed to the limit and the grip.. now that's something to write home to your mom about! where before i would be squealing the heck out of the Michelins these were holding on for dear life and the poor girlfriend was having a really hard time trying to stay in her seat (not ready to splurge on a bucket seat for the passenger yet :D). i had to push very hard to get them to break loose a bit. i was very impressed indeed at what a little more tire and grippier rubber does for the handling.

it feels more planted at speed as well and the steering is a tad heavier but in a good way. running 32psi front 34psi rear cold.

i am very happy with my purchase gents! thanks a lot for the input! :)
i can only imagine how it will handle with a more aggressive alignment which i'm hoping to get this week.

That is the same setup that I ran once upon a time and it worked very well! The alignment will only help that much more. It will be a blast on the track. :cheers: