Lessons learned?: Buying a "used low mileage engine"....

[Brucelee]

Thanks guys!

[grantsfo]

Buying used motors is always a crap shoot. I make it a rule to never spend more than $3000 on Porsche sixes. Aircooled or watercooled.

I bought current motor in my car for $2500. Its still running strong after a year of abuse. Sounds pretty good too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3uYEVnVf-E

Its funny I wouldnt complain if I got hosed by somone as I know used motor is a huge risk, but I refuse to sell my used motors and I just give them away. To me its not worth dealing with greif of potential buyer who takes a chance on used motor and expects more.

[Brian Porsche Tech]

After reading this entire story across both threads on my day off, I feel obligated to point out several things that don't add up.

As others have said, buying any used engine is a complete crap shoot, and the only way I would ever buy a used engine is if I were planning to rebuild it. I'd say BUYER BEWARE in full caps! 95% of the people who will sell you a used engine will not give you a warranty, and if you get screwed, well you got screwed and have zero recourse. The only way you'd have any recourse is if the engine was stolen. Remember, factory Porsche motors come with a 2 year unlimited mileage warranty!

To whoever suggested that anyone wanting to verify the history of a used engine lookup the VIN #, that's excellent advice, but remember that carfax will only tell you so much. Also, you won't be able to get the VIN from the engine case #. If you are buying a used engine from the guy who took it out of his car, you can certainly talk to him and ask him to contact Porsche to release service records for the car. However, there is no way that you will be able to lookup the history unless you are the legal owner of the car. You can't just call PCNA or any Porsche dealer and say "hey, I'm looking at buying engine case number bla di bla, can you tell me the service history?" as Porsche and their dealers have a strict policy of only releasing information to the legal owner of the car. More than likely you'll never be able to get this info, and if you get a buddy to break the rules at a dealer, he risks being fired for doing that for you, so I wouldn't even think to ask that kind of favor.

Now, with respect to this story, there are several things that don't add up. First, it doesn't matter if the engine has 20k or 60k, if you got less than 3% leakdown, especially cold, you've got an excellent engine. These engines don't wear out their bearings, and if you're replacing the IMS bearing, which is the one big weak leak, anyway it's really a moot point.

It's not surprising at all that the cam timing was off. I made the same goof myself at work years ago when we replaced a head on one of these, as the service manual leaves out a critical step when setting the timing. Was rather frustrating to have to go re-do all that work! All the techs that I know have added notes to the service manuals for things like this now.

Now, the claim that the head bolts were torqued to 10 lbs, this is practically impossible. First, you're not supposed to use a torque wrench backwards! Even if you did, backout torque is not indicative of anything when referencing tightening torque. If whatever "idiot" that built this motor got as far as getting the case halves and bearing carrier, and reciprocating assembly back together I'd say he's no idiot. If he torqued the head bolts to 10 lbs, what do you think he did with the rod bolts and bearing carrier bolts? I'd say anyone who got this far is at least reasonably mechanically inclined and would understand the importance of following recommended torque spec during assembly.

Second, if the head bolts really were torqued to 10 lbs, that engine would have had a leaking head gasket within the first 10 seconds after initial fire up, with all of the usual symptoms of exhaust gas in the coolant and oil/ coolant intermix. There is absolutely no way that that engine would last multiple hours over several days on an engine dyno, and then during street driving, only to leak when first on the track.

Likewise, if the engine had a cracked head, you'd also have oil/coolant intermix immediately after startup on the dyno, and certainly during street driving. If the engine was torn down with a cracked head, then it happened on the track, not before. Let's get our stories straight here folks, and not throw blame on someone where it's not deserved.

By the way, to whatever shop claims to have an engine dyno for M96 engines, what setup are you running, and how are you able to accommodate the various 2.5, 2.7, 3.2, 3.4, 3.6, 3.8 engines with variocam and variocam plus, across 5.2, 7.2 7.8 and 7.8X DMEs and their associated maps? How have you gotten all these DMEs to function without their matching immobilizers? I don't know how you'd get data anyway, since the PST2 or PIWIS (if you have either) will not work without the CAN bus present.

[Jake Raby]

The head bolts were removed with a standard 8"ratchet and virtually little effort according to the tech that removed them.. The owner was also present and verified this. Prperly torqued M96 head bolts that have been heat cycled are never removed by hand that easily, I have broken tools (ratchets and apexes) removing them on many occasions.

I personally chassis dynoed this car, flashed the ECU 5 times and put at least 20 runs on it.. I then drove it to and from my house/ shop twice at 83 miles round trip before the car was shipped.. There were no symptoms of intermix when it left my shop and also when it arrived in Ohio and was inspected by the shop that was doing the track alignment on the car..

It also blew my mind that the engine could make that much power (251 RWHP) and drive that well with no symptoms but then have head bolts with such little torque.. Trust us- it did, but it was a miracle.

The case halves of this engine were not broken apart, so the torque of the carrier, rods and other internal shortblock components are not in question. The Phantom didn't go there- if he would have I have no doubt that a connecting rod would have ejected it's self the first time the engine hit 7,000 RPM.

Depositions from all involved will tell this story later.

As for the cracked head creating immediate intermix- thats a blanket statement thats not true. Thats simply because I have experienced these engines doing very weird issues- we are the guys that get the jobs that dealers can't figure out or don't want to work with.. I specialize in working with "problem children. That said I have seen several instances where intermix would only occur at certain temperatures due to the area of the crack coupled to oil and coolant pressures at those areas at certain temps, engine speeds and oil/coolant volume and pressure. I have seen engines that would not intermix unless the engine was idling.. Try to troubleshoot that!

Anyone who works with these engines at a heavy internal level for any amount of time will learn to NEVEr make a blanket statement.. The M96 has a wild array of bazaar issues and no, some don't make sense and they don't have to because mechanical things are just that.. They are not governed by rules.

Our engine dyno can currently accomodate the M96 engines using up to the 7.2 DME, with a few hacks.. These are the engines we work with most due to their age and application with most of the cars of this generation now seeing mods with age.
When doing newer than 7.2 cars or VC+ I have to use one of 3 different programmable ECUS that are permanently hard wired into the test cell.

Most of the work we are doing with the newer engines is development work and mechanical work of comparing different camshafts, head work and etc. For this work the ECU doesn't really impact our data because the results are comparables with the same ECU back to back. When comparing a couple of aftermarket ECUs to the DME the results are very similar in the same car with back to back comparos done with no other changes made. even with aftermarket ECUS we are still able to use all the stock sensors, coil packs and can run sequentially... At WOT during evals the results are damn near identical.

In the majority of instances we aren't testing fuel delivery/ ECU capabilities, we simply want to see what a change does to the engine's efficiency, BSFC, throttle response and overall net outputs.

I use a Race-Technology DL-2 data acquisition system to gather data for all dyno cell evaluations, so we don't need any of the Porsche hardware to gather what we are looking for. This system is also transferrable into any customers car or test car to gather the same analog and OBD (in car only) data so we can compare engine dyno, chassis dyno and on the road numbers with the same instruments, senders and software. Here we are not stuck on Porsche procedures, mindsets or rules.. I do my best to defy everything that Porsche set forth and not play their games.

Lots of engines that we build are shipped to the corners of the country or world and we have no car present to install them into. Due to this it is critical to have an arrangement where we can run engines under load for several hours to ensure there are no mechanical issues, no oil leaks and that the engine's output is within the range thats defined by it's base engine combination. I run most engines more than 10 hours, do all the break in, leak down, compression tests and even pull the oil sump to remove any stray sealant that may have made it's way into the oil pick up tube..

In situations where we are forced to use only an aftermarket ECU we can still gain critical efficiencies from the fuel MAPs that will help to create tune files for the engine if it is to be applied with a DME system. This gives a very good starting point for base tuning files.

I am working on some ways to outsmart the newer ECUs, but it requires assistance from several different people and just making what we have now actually work was a real ******************** and took a year of experimentation to make happen.. The answer for the newer ECUs is going to be salvaging the dash and entire critical harnass from a later car to overcome the immobilizer and etc.. Thats something we'll need to worry about in 2-3 years as those cars gain in age and begin to see higher desires for internal mods, like the 1st gen engines are now..

And no, I won't tell anyone how we made it work, you can figure it out like I did..

Anyone doing this type of set up would be considered my competitor, and I choose to develop, maintain and perpetuate our advantages.

As for a used engine:
I agree about the prices and etc that you guys have posted.. The gripe that Phil and I have with the Phantom is the fact that he misrepresented this engine in every way possible.. He then created stories to substantiate this, then created false users to help portray these and even generate fake letters and had them mailed to us by another fictitious character on the opposite coast.

Who cares if the engine broke.. We were lied to and we vowed to do whatever was required to find the history of this engine and it's owners.. This is a matter of principal, nothing more. We have been successful.

As for how Phil did all this... Well anything is possible with effort, dedication, google and a few phone calls to the right people, especially when those are the owners of the car the engine came from, both past and present.

[pcs5978]

One thing the guys that run this Forum have pointed out to me is this. The most they can do to any one person posting under a given name, is to ban them from the site. But that person can simply log in again under another name and there's nothing they can do about it. What I can tell you is that the fellow I bought the motor from - the motor that's inspired all this nonsense, has posted on this Forum using different names. So, when someone suddenly shows up on this thread, or any other thread on the Forum, with all sorts of new things to say, just keep that fact in mind. Especially when things "don't add up".

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by pcs5978

One thing the guys that run this Forum have pointed out to me is this. The most they can do to any one person posting under a given name, is to ban them from the site. But that person can simply log in again under another name and there's nothing they can do about it. What I can tell you is that the fellow I bought the motor from - the motor that's inspired all this nonsense, has posted on this Forum using different names. So, when someone suddenly shows up on this thread, or any other thread on the Forum, with all sorts of new things to say, just keep that fact in mind. Especially when things "don't add up".

Phil and I think a lot alike.. Thats exactly what I was thinking when I saw the low post count and lots of trends that are familiar..

When someone comes in to a conversation and automatically starts substantiating who they are and what they've done for the last 30 years I start to "add things up"..

The Phantom had posted in the other thread on this topic several times, in fact those posts are how Phil and i started to piece the whole thing together. Thanks Phantom, you may be plenty of things but smart isn't one of them!

[Brucelee]

Brain Tech.

It IS curious that you arrive here with 2 posts to "refute" this story. Obviously, the story has a long and sordid tail so to speak.

Perhaps you can just let it run its course, as you are late to the game.

Jake has been a consistent and helpful contributer here. His posts have built his credibility. Yours haven't, yet!

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Brian Tech.

It IS curious that you arrive here with 2 posts to "refute" this story. Obviously, the story has a long and sordid tail so to speak.

I'm sure you've already gone and inspected the new guy's IP address, and compared it to the one that belongs to everybody's favorite apparition.

Can you give us a hint if its the same guy, or just someone new who's trying to make a name for himself by butting heads with Jake?

Also, anyone who has an interest in how things actually work can spot when someone knows what they are talking about, and when someone is trying to blow smoke up your butt. Its always fun to listen to someone who knows just enough to be dangerous, and the stuff they are willing to claim, and then compare that to someone who actually KNOWS what they are talking about, and how that person says so much more with so many fewer words.

I see this all the time on motorcycle forums, especially Ducati forums, where people seem to think that carbon fiber and loud large exhaust systems are gifts from God, but yet they think that adjusting the valves on their engine is a black art, and should only be handled by actual Druids from the Old Country.

If the new guy is Casper the Ghost, I hope Bruce will let us know so that we can ignore his drivel.

BC.

[Jake Raby]

The last time someone with two posts entered a thread on this topic it was none other than the Phantom himself... I wouldn't think he was dumb enough to do that again, but the Phantom has exceeded our expectations for stupid actions already..

Maybe the new poster is genuine, if he is I'd think he would have entered the forum with a tad more tact but I could be wrong..

But he is now representing himself as a Porsche Employee/ technician which means that he is representing Porsche with his posts.. His Boss might not like that, and he'd probably get hanged by his scrotum if they knew he threw Mobil 1 oil under the bus in his posts here!

[rkwei]

it's not the same IP address -


Please don't let this spiral out of control and lets stick to the engine facts.

[Dragonwind]

[Jake Raby]

He has sent Phil and I emails from at least 5 different IP addresses...

I doubt seriously he'd make the same mistake twice..

Oh well, the car with the Phantom's engine is back up and running now after we replaced the cylinder heads...

[blinkwatt]

This thread is a waste of time unless names are given. Until then, Mr.Raby is just dragging people along promoting his own business and installing fear in others.

[Brucelee]

No names are to be mentioned. When that happends, the thread will be deleted.

The thread remains as long a there is educational value to the forum readers.

welcome to the board, brian. Sounds like Jake needs to offer a "tech training" course so other porsche technicians can be well educated on the m96.

Originally Posted by Brian Porsche Tech

By the way, to whatever shop claims to have an engine dyno for M96 engines, what setup are you running, and how are you able to accommodate the various 2.5, 2.7, 3.2, 3.4, 3.6, 3.8 engines with variocam and variocam plus, across 5.2, 7.2 7.8 and 7.8X DMEs and their associated maps? How have you gotten all these DMEs to function without their matching immobilizers? I don't know how you'd get data anyway, since the PST2 or PIWIS (if you have either) will not work without the CAN bus present.

Originally Posted by blinkwatt

This thread is a waste of time unless names are given. Until then, Mr.Raby is just dragging people along promoting his own business and installing fear in others.

LOL! Three engines in under 80k...when your ims goes, you'll be on the phone with Jake, asking for advice and help (like I was).

I had the chance to visit Dr. jakes' lab, and meet him - a better gentleman you will be hard pressed to find anywhere.

[blinkwatt]

LOL! Three engines in under 80k...when your ims goes, you'll be on the phone with Jake, asking for advice and help (like I was).

Nope, IF(not when) my IMS fails or whatever else could happen to cause the engine to fail I'm selling my Boxster as a roller. Then moving to a late model c5 z06.

I have no doubt that Jake Raby can do good work on these cars and he is a nice fellow but some of these failures especially the lifters, no other mechanic that I know of that works on Porsches has even said this was ever an issue. It seems like every engine Jake works on has 15-20 bad lifters....by 60k....

I have no doubt that in your mind, someone would create a story like this to drum up business (if I'm not mistaken, you were the kid who attempted to sell your car to a member two days after detailing the amount of abuse and reckless driving you did).

I also have no doubt, that you are the kind of person who would only question a former Marines honor and integrity from the safety of your keyboard.

Someone great once said, it is far better to leave your mouth closed, and have your peers wonder if you are ignorant, than open your mouth, and remove all doubt.

Originally Posted by blinkwatt

[I] I know of that works on Porsches has even said this was ever an issue. It seems like every engine Jake works on has 15-20 bad lifters....by 60k....

[Jake Raby]

Unfortunately very few technicians have disassembled the M96 to the point of ever touching a lifter. This is the reason why most of the modes of engine failure that these engines have experienced have taken so long to be thoroughly understood and remedied.

There is another group of Porsche technicians that have never worked with Hydraulic lifters, because of Porsche's lack of their use for so many years. Some of these people wouldn't know a good lifter from a bad one if they had one of each in their hands.

Because of this people have reassembled engines having never checked for bad lifters. Only the worst of lifter failures make any sort of noise at all, and the result is lower power or a loss of MPG. Because of this and the fact that most Boxster owners have only driven their own cars and have no idea if they have lower power because the car is still fast.

It seems the group that haven't seen any bad lifters or the other issues are the same group that condemned us and called us "stupid" for working on this engine a few years ago. They stated that "no money could be made repairing the engines because a new replacement was so cheap".. So now that the tables have turned they seem to feel inclined to say that the issues don't exist; but they can't because they were busy being "smart" and swapping engines out while we were addressing the issues.

More than likely if we didn't have so much interface with the engines that come in and are taken apart as cores I would have never realized that the lifter issues were so widespread.

As far as using this thread for the benefit of my company:
Some people deny that any issue occurs and they don't want anyone to tell them that there is anything that is ever going to happen to their engine. The last person they want to remind them of these things is one of the guys that is heading up the development of the engines.

I have been fighting this issue and the fact that a certain group of people do not feel that ANY professional should ever engage in activity within a forum like this one. People have said the same thing that blinkwatt has said for 15 years, but the funny thing is they never complain when I decide to give away free information via the forums.

The issues with the engine is real.. a few years ago you never heard of IMS failures because not enough of them had occurred yet. In a few years the lifter situation will be similar and you'll be able to say that you read all about it here on 986forum first.

Today a very small percentage of Porsche Technicians have done anything to an M96 more invasive than a cam cover re-seal. How can these people challenge anything within the engine? They have no direct experience with the engineThe bad part of trying to share knowledge and information about anything on the internet is the fact that some people will get pissed off, call us fear mongers and etc. If I piss off a few people along the way, but end up saving a slew of engines I consider that an fair trade off.

I learned long ago that not everyone can be pleased and the biggest mistake that anyone can make is TRYING to please everyone.

Some people will tell you exactly what they know you want to hear- You'll never get that from me.

Don't shoot the messenger.. If you want to be pissed off at someone call Germany.

BTW- I only posted this thread after my inbox was filled up FIVE TIMES with messages from people wanting to know what was going on with the "Phantom".. I got so tired of it that I left my inbox full and it remains that way now!

A follow up to the story will be posted on my site after everything is a matter of public record and has been wrapped up..

[gRed04]

Originally Posted by Fred Demara

I have no doubt that in your mind, someone would create a story like this to drum up business (if I'm not mistaken, you were the kid who attempted to sell your car to a member two days after detailing the amount of abuse and reckless driving you did).

I also have no doubt, that you are the kind of person who would only question a former Marines honor and integrity from the safety of your keyboard.

Someone great once said, it is far better to leave your mouth closed, and have your peers wonder if you are ignorant, than open your mouth, and remove all doubt.

I have no doubt that Jake offers a great product but let's leave the Marines out of this

I too have wondered a little about SOME of the claims of the phantom story myself. Especially the heads not being torqued yet the car was driven hard for a couple days.

If I am not mistaken when Jake first started mentioning the lifter issue he pretty much insinuated this was a Mobil 1 oil problem and most cars using it will be affected.

He even went so far as to bet someone that he bring in his car and if it DIDNT have 20 ( dont remember the exact number ) bad lifters they wouldnt pay for having them replaced.

Something along those lines.