Jake Raby exhaust evaluation
 

Wasn't there supposed be a big exhaust system evaluation coming from Jake Raby? I didn't see it on the "flat6" website and I haven't seen any links to it here within the forum.

I'm very interested to know what he came up with, if anything. I've been holding off on buying an aftermarket exhaust system because of this.

Please tell me that i've overlooked it and where I can find it.

I will have an evaluation of NHP (headers,bypass mids, exhaust) pre and post dyno etc.. but you will have to wait about a month. (out of town for work) see my thread.

None of the data has been posted, and it probably won't be... As soon as I mentioned it arguments began and thats something that I simply do not have time for these days.... Plus lots of people are rating the exhaust systems on sound and weight, and all I care about is RPM range and net power, especially torque..

I continue to gather data, I just finshed this testing today... 3 engines, same car.

All started life as a 3.2, the control is the lowest output run.. The 247HP run is a stock 3.2 bottom end with a nice valve job, bump in CR and cam timing alteration... Its got A LOT more left in it, it still had the 3.6 flash in the ECU in these tests..

The 286HP run was a stage II 3.6 that started life as the bone stock 3.2 that made the lowest power on this graph (it was hurting)...

Jake - Is the Stage II car still a "street engine" that you could expect a reasonably long life out of? Figuring drive train losses that puts your stage 2 cars well north of 320 hp at the crank plus gobs more useable torque....SWEET!! :cheers:

Mike

The stage II engine is 100% streetable and even passed a smog test and it runs on pump gas.. It's easier to drive than stock with the much higher torque and flat torque curve. Red line is reduced a bit which keeps the fun factor up without running 7,000 RPM all the time, and that helps longevity.

It is rated at 350HP at the flywheel, the test vehicle has wide track tires and was losing some power to a newly built tranny with LSD that was still breaking in.

Few people have the ability to run these engines on an engine dyno and a chassis dyno :-)

Here is a comparo between this FSI 3.6 Stage II and a hopped up 3.4 in my 911. The 911 engine has seen our IMS retrofit, a dozen EVO flashes and an EVO cold air intake and it makes 15HP more at the wheels than it did bone stock..

I'd be interested to see dyno chart comparing your 3.6L along with a stock 996/997 3.6L.

I'll have that data in about two weeks at the flywheel and rear wheels.

I hate to ask, but why do you care about the people who are going to argue about cold hard facts? They will always exist, and they will always be vocal, but why let them have that warm feeling inside that they can keep you under their boot?

I personally don't care much about sound changes nor do I care about installing expensive exhaust systems, but I do care about knowledge. I enjoy the sound of my stock '98 Boxster, and don't have any plans on installing a different muffler for a different sound, but I wouldn't mind knowing if there is a better set of headers that I can install that might increase the low to medium range torque on my car.

I had a wonderful experience a couple Fridays ago by taking my Boxster out onto HPR (http://www.highplainsraceway.com). One thing I noticed is that some of the corners I needed to be in second gear, because if I was in third gear, I would be between 3k and 4k rpms, while trying to climb uphill, and the 2.5 could definitely use a boost of torque in that rev range.

Everywhere else on the track, the car is perfect.

I love reading about your methodology when it comes to testing a theory.
Unfortunately, you are worried about what 2% of the people are going to say about the results of your data. The other 98% of us don't care about that 2%.

BC.

I have hadc to fight opposition with the sharing of knowledge in the aircooled world for years and don't want to make the same mistakes with the M96 that I have with the other engines I have manipulated.

Fact is there is nothing worse than working for days gathering dat and setting up test gear only to post it and have someone who reads tech articles with no practical application experience at all challenge it... That happens and I really don't have the tolerance for it, especially when giving the information away for free.

I already receive more crap through email than you can imagine from people that are still in denial that their engine can break... Some are down right nasty!

I understand and appreciate your view point. It is much like mine. The answer is you can get 1-3Hp from the headers more than likely, buit it won't be astounding.. And you might shear off 2-3 exhaust flange bolts during the install and that can cost you days or hundreds of dollars to repair.

That means you need a flatter torque curve and more mid range grunt... Something I have gotten from a chamshaft change or a valve timing alteration that deviates from stock. The exhaust system might actually hurt the performance you are looking for..

every car has some corner or portion of the track where the power isn't what it should be.

Unfortunately that 2% has a voice that is much louder than the 98%... If I were going to have to listen to flack for sharing information I should at least charge for it...

It really does suck for everyone... People only think I am trying to sell them something, hell I don't even sell an exhaust system!

Their is a perfect example of this non sense over on PPBB now, where a bunch of armchair wrench turners that have never touched our billet magnetic drain plug or low temp thermostat are challenging their effectiveness.. They are basing their opinions on assumption and are seriously piossing me off. I have the data and drive and test the cars daily that are equipped with the components.

Jake, as I told Charles, remember the old line about "leading a horse to water"......... Both you and Charles need to keep the faith and keep up your great efforts, for as you have seen, "they know not what they do........" We can only hope that they eventually wake up and see the light………..

Charles and I are both very driven... We have worked together as collaborative partners for many years and have solved dozens of issues with a multitude of engine platforms.. On top of that, I am a Marine and I do not retreat, only fall back and regroup.

I wonder if any of those challengers on PPBB have ever assembled an M96 engine?? If they have ever seen one out of the car, or whith it's ancillaries removed??

Oh well, I was kicked off that forum for attempting to be an asset to the community and because I would not play the political games... Helping people really is difficult and expensive.

Jake,

Thanks for the wellspring of information you have provided, I kept the Excellence issue with your quotes in it as a study guide and bible of the 2.5 engine. Don't let some "pussy hurt" emails take you off your game, you're a mechanic, you're going to hear all sorts of nonsense from a myriad of sources. Perhaps PPBB is worried about the loss of sales.

One of my Clients made a visit to the facility here... Shortly after that he posted positive comments here on 986 forum as well as PPBB, infact it was the same post on both boards.

The "High Sheriff" over on PPBB had his post deleted almost immediately, when he asked why there was no explanation.. Here on this forum a few days later someone aslked where the post had gone, so I made a fairly firm post about it and how unfair it was since the poster was not anything more than a purchaser with an opinion after seeing what we were doing first hand. I continued to post on PPBB..

Then, after THREE MONTHS the head honcho from PPBB gets on a power trip after he finally sees my comment here and sends me an email "asking" me not to post there again.. I sent a reply of apology and tried to make everything right, he never replied...

Thats OK.. I have a plan. (Marines always do)

Jake, I've always looked at having my posts deleted as a badge of honor.......... By-the-by, did you catch the "longest tread in history" on PPBB about how to use a crows foot extension on a torque wrench? It literally went on for days..................

I had the pleasure of visiting Jake's shop recently (thanks for taking that huge boat anchor engine off my hands, Jake ;) ). Not so much a shop, but rather a lab. Thanks for all your help, Jake, and please don't let the actions and comments of a few bad apples prevent you from helping the members of this board.

Yeah I saw that thread... Having used crows feet to torque flight controls in aircraft, it really confused me that none of the experts knew the formul for calculating torque angle....

Between them they have probably built an accumulative 5 engines....

PBBB is pretty much a social club as mentioned below. They tend to kick off or run off anyone with knowledge or expertise. Just ask Tool Pants...they booted him off too. People who are serious about wrenching on their Boxster know that is not a good resource for info. That site tends to attract Boxster owners who want to talk about the weather or their 401K plan or how they got a rez at some trendy restaurant. :barf: True enthusiasts that actually wrench on their cars and drive them visit sites like this one. Keep on doing what you do Jake and don't worry about the naysayers, we need more people out there like you.

Thanks guys... I think the key is in sharing through books and other reference materials.. We have data that no one else does and we deserved to be compensated for gathering it...

Over on PPBB I keep seeing people referring to "experts" that don't share our views, but for some of reason none of these people are ever named.. I'd be wiling to bet they haven't even built a single M96 engine...

I have never fancied "experts" and I have been refusing that title for the better part of 15 years... Its pure BS.

Well, you know, I actually wouldn't mind paying to have access to see your test information. If you wanted to make a small section of your Flat 6 Innovations site restricted access for 5 or 10 dollars a year, or whatever, I wouldn't mind paying to have access you your latest test data.

I'm probably not the only one, too.

As for the PPBB, that would be the reason why I'm just a lurker there, and haven't even created an account as of yet, though I've been watching it since February when I bought my car. I found this forum first, then found the Rennlist forums, which are also pretty fantastic, but are only for technical issues (don't try to post anything else!), and then PPBB. There are some posts that I read through, but everyone is correct, that its a forum consisting mostly of fluff, and concern for the stock holdings of the elite.

Only once in a great while do they actually discuss technical stuff to help someone repair a car, and then its mostly just chassis related. But, its a forum that serves its purpose, and makes them very happy, so it isn't a bad forum, in the grand scheme of things. Their politics and post policing tendencies is what pulls them down at times, however.

As for the people talking through their plush posteriors about things that they have no experience with, the answer is simple: They don't want to know the truth and you're not going to force it down their throats.

Those of us who actually have experience with engine performance will know they're full of excrement, and will devalue their statements accordingly.

BC.

since I am the person that started this thread about exhaust systems, I find it funny that other members (jake excluded...haha) are more interested in discussing other forums. I think we are getting a little off subject.

Thanks for the quick response Jake. I only asked about testing because I wanted to modify my stock exhaust for sound without loosing any hp or torque. I am currently running a stock 3.2. I look forward to any more test data you can offer.

Sorry to have taken your thread off onto a wild tangent...

None of my developments have been made for sound and they never will be... I only concern myself with gains in torque, HP, Efficiency and RPM range... I always want a car to be faster than it sounds :-)

Sound can be an additional byproduct of other performance attributes, but its not something I shoot for as a particular goal... Otherwise I'd be just as guilty as all the guys building "fart cans" with no development behind them at all...

The joys of crossposting... Of course a "Parrot" ended up posting my comment about armchair wrench turners over at PPBB at the link below..

http://www.ppbb.com/scgi-bin/boards/986/main.pl?read=1527015

I stated exactly what I feel and will stand behind this, because I am confident in the abilities of the components we have developed,and the data I have collected from them through time in the lab and in my personal cars. This data is continually supported by the results that others experience through first hand experience with the components- not assumption. (JFP's experiences are just one example)

Of course I cannot reply to the posts of those on PPBB because the site "expelled" me....

PPBB has a lot of great people, but it also has some people that are totally in left field.. They have no data and probably don't own a tool box, but they'll argue based on something they read in a book...

So when all the traffic from PPBB comes here to look at this post that was linked, just realize that you aren't getting the "Rest of the story" about why I am not welcome to post there... They never did deposit or cash the check that I sent them for sponsorship of the site for some crazy reason.. It's been MIA for over 6 months now.

I was treated like a red headed step child on PPBB and my Clients had their posts deleted for absolutely no reason.. The answer is YES, I am bitter about this! Anyone with a spine would be just as bitter... We are busting our asses to develop and create solutions (and SHARE them) for these engines and what do we get in return??? Pure BS!

Feel free to crosspost this. I stand behind what I post, just like what I develop.

Hold on a minute
 

As long as Jake Raby is going to relentlessly continue with his hijack, I would like to add my 2¢.

PPBB is a free discussion board. One of the common topics is "is this product any good?" Your products are fair game.

How can you (and why would you) make personal statements about someone's qualifications when you know absolutely nothing about them?

The truth (and discussion about what is the truth) is the friend of the honest businessman and the enemy of the dishonest.

Jake,

I'm a former USAF aircraft mechanic and it's is hard to believe that people “in the profession” don’t know the tools of their trade or how to do simple calculations. Makes one wonder about the quality of the product they produce.

Keep up the great work. I’d love to swap my 3.2 for one of your Stage II 3.6’s. With a torque curve (or lack thereof) that flat it must be a ball to drive.

That's fair if Jake is allowed to freely participate in the discussion too. If his posts are deleted and he's asked not to participate at PPBB at all things get just a little one sided pretty quick. He's out there actually doing work on these cars and posting results. It's really easy for some others to hide behind the internet and post whatever they want with no factual basis for anything.

My 2 cents is PPBB lost a very valuable resource when Jake was kicked off and are much worse off for it.

I don't think it's necessary for the designer of a part to be involved in a discussion for the discussion to be informative, interesting, and even illuminating. After all, Porsche doesn't have reps online in the discussion forums defending every complaint against their cars or addressing the claims that their parts are insufficient.

I have never heard of PPBB deputies deleting posts or banning people for no reason. And they do respond to questions about why posts have been deleted.

The archives for PPBB are available and they prove that Jake's posts are mostly about self-promotion, self-aggrandizement, putting others down, and little about informative content.

I don't doubt that Jake has a lot of valuable experience and information but as far as PPBB is concerned, it's not a big loss for the above-mentioned type of posts to be discontinued.

Jake keep up the good work. As far as PPBB goes thats the place I go to learn more about carbon fiber trim pieces or best type of wax to use on a new 987. You dont belong there. Stick with more technical sites. Us folks who know about issues as well as potential of M96 are behind you. Your reputation with this platform will take time just as it did with T4's. Most of these guys dont know how you go after engine platforms.

Youre used to this stuff from 914 world and you developed the leading edge for the T4 platform. No doubts you will do similar thing for M96.

I just need to figure out what I'm going to do with my race car so I can use some of the parts you are developing! Boxster is sort of odd duck in SCCA racing. I'm trying to figure out best class for my diverse interests across AX, hillclimbing and perhaps road racing.

My little 2.5 Box recently set an SCCA GT3 class record at a hillclimb that has been held for 23 years. I'm still thinking a small displacement high output Boxster has a home somewhere.

It's interesting that Jake does almost none of the negative stuff you decribe above on this forum and provides a TON of informative content......hmmmm. Since you indicate its no big loss for PPBB for him not to post on PPBB anymore perhaps he can spend more time on this forum. We'll happily take it! Sounds like a win-win for both forums!! :cheers:

So... Why don't we see if some good can come from this crossposting and the war between the forums.

When I wrote Rob back after his email a few months ago I agreed to disagree and to move forward and try to make this all work out.

Since this thread has brought a lot of things to light I'd still be willing to sponsor their site and offer information much like I do here... and do so without any self promotion.. Skyler posted there that I was still welcome to post, but thats not what Rob had emailed to me.

I think that how we handle this situation now says more about the people involved than anything else and I am certainly open to working out the details and abiding by their rules... I abide by everyone elses and have been since Rennlist was still a "list"....

I am open, lets just see if they are.. If any PPBB admin would like to chat, just let me know as I feel we can resolve this for the mutual benefit of the entire community and the M96 engine.

I'm sorry to continue the hijack of this thread, but I posted a comment defending the magnetic drain plug on PPBB and also mentioned the low temp t-stat, which took on a life of it's own. I am not an engineer, but a Porsche owner and truly appreciate the work Jake and Charles have put into making these cars more reliable. I have upgraded my '02 S with the "easy" components (i.e. external) in hopes it will extend the longevity of my engine.

There are those that will argue every point, regardless of what makes sense or is factual...I don't have time for them and can see how it can be very frustrating dealing with their uninformed comments and opinions. Let their engine implode (if they even own one) then see who they go crying to.

BTW, I've deleted my link to PPBB; the place didn't impress me anyway. Too many "so called" experts that want to argue everything, except their own opinion.


J Matta
aka JGM911

Make love not war
 

There is nothing wrong with PPBB. There is nothing wrong with 986 forum. If you don't like one, don't go there. Web forums are communities and like real-world, physical communities, they acquire the personalities, prejudices and proclivities of those that live there. If those folks ain't your kinda folks its very easy to move out. But don't bash them. It lowers people's opinion of the basher not the bashee.

My intent was not to bash the posters at PPBB; I just feel the place is too "clique-ish" for my taste, hence my de-link. JPA in PA does his best to make reason...he must like abuse.

For me, I enjoy the technical discussions and have learned quite a bit about our engines from Jake and Charles. To read the posts where everything and anything is challenged ("the sky isn't really blue") gets old.

I think it's ok to challenge that the sky is blue as long as you also challenge that the Earth is flat. :)

:rolleyes: Sounds as if this forum may not be suited for your personality. It appears that all you want to do is "stir the pot", which is unfortunate and serves no useful purpose.

Wow, now that's deep. You should be a philosopher. :eek:

Depends on the definition of "is". :)