Question about independent shops - Did I get ripped off?

[Timco]

I fix / install boilers and gas fired equipment and AC. There's nothing worse than being in the midddle of a fix or repair and realizing they need some other part or specialty item that wasn't quoted and is 100% their issue but you've quoted a price. They will either understand or strenuously object and refuse to pay.

All the research in the world won't find the hidden issue or make up for the great feeling of isolation you get when you're up against something expensive you can't do it figure out yourself. Now what do you do? How much is the most you will pay? How much can you afford? $100 has a different value to each person, many here remember that rich kid a few years back....

So, what's fair? We know how long these fixes typically take. There's books on it. I've done your repair. It's not rocket science. I charge $100/hr and need to bill for my time. If there's something unexpected price must go up, but I can't just decide I want to make more on this job because I'm slow and it's a Porsche.

The comment about if you can't afford the repair is a fair one in the good financial sense light. Didn't see the furnace dying coming and need $3k but it's going to really hurt? Everyone needs a home. Same issue with a Porsche water pump? Seems like a fine line.

[Anker]

The fair thing in that situation is to offer the customer a fair discount on the unanticipated item, either giving the customer 1/2 or all of the labor cost. That's what I do, and I tell my customers up front what my policy is. Personally I am in the 100% off the labor cost camp.

[JFP in PA]

The problem here is that the OP has "buyer's remorse", which is very difficult to get a court to go along with once the bill is paid. I seriously do not think that the shop is going to "do the right thing" and give him his money back now.

Consider this a learning lesson and move on, anything else is just going to lead to agita and more expense.

[bwdz]

Since he hasn't posted up a detailed bill we know nothing about this. It is not unusual to take a car apart for one thing and find a whole bunch of other things wrong with it. He could have taken it in for an engine service and when on the hoist they could have found suspension issues or something like that. He has not even elaborated what was done so these are all guesses.
OP should post up a detailed bill or else there's no point in speculating anything else.

[Timco]

Originally Posted by Anker

The fair thing in that situation is to offer the customer a fair discount on the unanticipated item, either giving the customer 1/2 or all of the labor cost. That's what I do, and I tell my customers up front what my policy is. Personally I am in the 100% off the labor cost camp.

I'll throw a ton of free labor at an unanticipated extra if customer will simply cover parts since I'm already in there.

[drewman75]

Sorry for the tardy reply to my own topic. Was out of town for a couple days. I'm not really comfortable scanning in the itemized bill where it could be identified. Like I mentioned, my point wasn't to flame the shop or owner. Especially if I'm in the wrong. I was just wondering if the labor charging methodology was common practice these days for indy shops and to give a heads up other newer owners to prevent them from making the same mistake and to ask the right questions. To address something that keeps coming up. No, there was no additional work done for that second adjusted estimate and final price. It was not a case of them pulling things apart and discovering additional things needing work. What he quoted me for initially is all that he did. A major service and a water pump/ therm replacement. The reason he gave me (even in response to my questions after I came home and reached back out) was that the parts were more expensive than he expected. Which again, parts total was $1700 and total bill was $1300 more than originally quoted. So unless he expected the parts to basically cost him nothing, I can't see how that holds weight. But I digress. I have chalked it up to an expensive lesson. Also, I can afford the car and this bill. It's not a case of it sinking me financially and my being irresponsible as some seem to be suggesting. It's just it puts me over what I planned to spend on the care initially. Basically like adding it to the tab of the price of the car since it is so soon after I bought it. Which is annoying. Again, I more than expected to shell out over the course of having it. But no one expects a $3500 bill for a car they literally just bought unless its a fixer up project car. Which this was not. Anyway. For those curious, he is the breakdown of the bill.

Labor-

80K service - 8.0 hours @ $120 - $960
Replace water pump, thermostat and fill with coolant and bleed system - 6.0 hours @ $120 - $720

Total $1680

Parts-

Air filter -- $52.57
cabin filter -- $76.12
plugs (6 @ 20.02) -- 120.12
oil filter -- 28.62
motul 8100 5/40 (9 @ 10.75) -- $96.75
brake fluid (2 @ 10.00) -- $20.00
decarbonizer 44k -- $24.95
seals -- $1.42
coils (6 @ 79.64) -- $477.84
water pump -- $454.88
gasket -- $13.57
thermostat -- $172.95
gasket -- $7.60
coolant -- $125.00
brake-kleen -- $5.99
cap -- $28.83

Total $1707.21

Total (parts and labor) with tax and shop fee $3510.84

[joecal]

The parts alone are awfully high and I wonder what he did for the 80k mile service, that seems awfully high too! I would try to talk to the owner about the bill and see if he'll give you some kind of refund. It can't hurt to ask and report him to the BBB if he doesn't.

[Quadcammer]

6 hours to do a waterpump and thermostat? Thats just robbery. 3 hour job, especially considering they can do other stuff while the cooling system drains.

Parts prices appear to be full boat list price or more from Porsche Dealer.

If they used OEM suppliers like pierburg, bosch, Wahler, or Beru instead of the porsche boxed part, you'd have saved yourself at least half on the parts bill.

Basically this shop seems more interested in their own financial condition than working with you to fix your car with good parts at a reasonable cost.

Perhaps they are more of a shop for a 991, and not so much for a 986.

[algiorda]

I would recommend you start learning how to perform these tasks yourself if your going to keep the car.

The kind folks here will help if they can and there are already many DIY videos and articles on everything on your list!

I've already tackled most of the items on your list for 1/4 of the price you paid. Chalk it up to life's lessons.

[pidj]

I'm curious about the price for the water pump and the coils? I wonder if they included labour on these line items and then charged labour again, effectively double-dipping?

A water pump from Porsche is less than 300.00 and the coils are 38.00-68.00 each ....

[JayG]

The only reasonable prices he charged you that I can see is the Motul 8100, brake fluid, the Brake-Kleen and maybe the coolant

The rest looks like maybe 50-100% markup over list.
What were the exact parts he used? Were they genuine Porsche from a dealer or OEM?
Also if there were Genuine Porsche, he probably got a discount off of list from the dealer.
Hell just being a PCA member gets you 10% from most dealers

I did the WP myself on jack stands and with a double flush and fill it was maybe 3 hours and the parts , WP, low temp thermostat, gasket and coolant was around $350 for OEM

As far as the parts being more expensive than he thought, well he had an opportunity to price them before he started the work and gave you the estimate. If there were no additional parts needed, he should honor his original parts estimate

[nicecar]

I thought there were guidlines for labor hours that were to be adhered to in order to protect the consumer from unfair labor costs? 2 indys that I use mark up parts which is anoying but convienient, also they warranty the part for 2 years. It is a bad feeling to pay too much so alot of small things are DIY. It is worth every penny...IMO














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[marcoc]

Originally Posted by algiorda

I would recommend you start learning how to perform these tasks yourself if your going to keep the car.

The kind folks here will help if they can and there are already many DIY videos and articles on everything on your list!

I've already tackled most of the items on your list for 1/4 of the price you paid. Chalk it up to life's lessons.

Well said.

[Paul]

I'm guessing the coil packs were not included in the original estimate. General rule is to replace all of them at once even if only one is cracked. The cracks can be hard to see until they are removed.

[achillies]

I don't get it. When I worked in the service dept of a dealer. Ca. in the 80's my estimate was the price unless I called the owner and got his approval for additional work. That approval needed to be heard by a second person. If that didn't happen the customer only paid the estimate. Period. If the car needed more work either the customer paid or it wasn't done. I could never call someone back and say ooppps I didn't get the price right so I need more money to do the same amount of work. I would get laughed at and hung up on.

[Giller]

https://www.yourmechanic.com/estimates/porsche/boxster/water-pump-replacement

This is an interesting site I've used from time to time to get a rough idea of what something might cost. Way way too many variables to make it truly accurate, but does give a general sense.

I also see $120/hour labour - that's very high - that's dealership labour pricing in these parts up North! ouch. My indy is $95 and he knows his stuff.

[bwdz]

Not sure what they did for 8 hours on it that did not include any parts. I see about $1000-1200 worth of parts if you bought them at Pelican from oem supplier and 6-7 hours labor for everything that was installed which should be in the 85-95 per hour range for an indy shop as the dealer is just over a 100. So not sure how they came up with 14 hours worth of work on your car and the parts prices are higher than dealer. This is one of those things that you can anonymously call the dealer and ask to have all those items replaced and ask for an estimate and compare.

[mikefocke]

Labor rates are local. Based on competition, rents, amortizing of equipment, costs of labor, etc. If in Md, it could be in the DC suburbs and rents there are expensive. Housing for the labor too. Very competitive for labor so those costs are high too.

My DC area P-car mechanic owned his building and went out of business when someone came along and wanted the real estate. He could retire to the country where living was cheap and go racing instead. He did a 90k service for me on a '01S TIP which includes a trans fluid change.

[particlewave]

Did you get ripped off?
Yes. Yes, you did. You got Marcellus Wallace'd.

[Perfectlap]

whether the shop was ethical or not, I think the heart of the issue is that you didn't voice your discomfort with their moving estimate at the critical moment. A simple "let's stick with the original estimate for now" would let them know that you weren't looking to spend $3500 on repairs. Things that didn't have to be done now would need to be done later seems to be the sentiment I'm getting from you. You have to put your foot down when we're talking repairs in the thousands. Just don't go busting balls over "small" bills because you might find your pool of options as far as shops who can fix your car correctly start to shrink.

The other issue seems to be that you are in one sense a newbie to this brand. People buy these cars second hand with an overly optimistic view of what it costs to COMPETENTLY service these cars. $3500 bills will be nothing unusual once your car hits a certain mileage and age. This brand requires specialized labor and overpriced parts. Those are the breaks. My advice for people who don't plan to own any water cooled Porsche long term is to wait until the car has 20k miles to buy and get out before it hits 50k miles. Let the first owners take the massive hit on depreciation and let the next owner pay those $3500 repair bills which don't come just once in a blue moon. You just got your first taste of what's to come if you drive the car long enough. Think of it as a reality check.