Ims guardian drain plug...
 

I recently installed the ims guardian and I torqued the drain plug to 19ft lbs as instructed and it leaks a little oil. I tightened it about an 1/8 turn further but it still leaks. Does anyone know what the max torque is on this drain plug before it can be damaged? And yes, crush ring is installed as well.

I am having the same problem. I had a small oil leak with a LN engineering magnetic drain plug. I thought I may have over tightened it and cracked it. So I ordered a new one. Tightened to 19 FT LBS and this one leaks as well. I used a new aluminum crush ring. Maybe I should try a copper crush ring next time?

My indie does not recommend this product based on their experience with leaks.

I also had the problem with the LN magnetic plug but tightening that just a little more seems to make it stop. I wonder if a rubber washer similar to a garden hose would make more sense since the torque is so light?

I'm on my 3rd drain plug. I over torqued the first one and damaged it internally; I carefully torqued the next two to the proper spec. The 2nd one leaked, and the 3rd one (currently installed) leaks.

Oh wow I see a trend here. Maybe we should start a poll on how many have leaks.

When you over tightened the drain plug, you may have distorted the sump cover opening enough to cause the other leaks.

Is there an alternative to the aluminum crush washer that is safe to use on these cars?
Better off with copper maybe? Also, I noticed the head on the mcd doesn't have a nice flat surface to sandwich the crush washer like the LN magnetic plug and the own plug have. Can a washer be added to this and then the crush washer?

I have ln magnetic and it has never leaked after 4-5 oil changes, new aluminum gasket each time, 19 ft/lbs.

In an instance where the plug has a seep after install, the worst thing that can be done is to tighten it further.

This will stretch the threads of the sump plate, and/ or the sensor, making the leak worse in most every case.

The proper method is to break torque on the unit, and re- torque it to 19# again.

Theirs lots of variability in the drain plug surfaces of stock sump plates. The stock drain plug is very soft (why the internal hex strips so easily) and able to conform to these deficiencies better, so the stock plug will mask some of those issues.

Another variable is the distance between the inner and outer portions of the sump plate drain recess. In some cases the outermost tips of the hex portion of the sensor will contact the innermost portion of the sump plate. If this happens at all, the tightening load will be shared between the two surfaces, and the sensor will leak. In that case the offending portion of the hex can be easily filed away.

If anyone has a persistent issue, and the unit is under warranty, we will machine your sump plate free of charge. If it's outside of warranty then it's a nominal fee and a fast service.

The same goes with sensors, if one of them leaks, and the unit is under warranty (1 year from purchase date, proof of purchase required) it will be replaced free of charge. We require a deposit to send a replacement plug out, which will be refunded once we receive the old plug back for evaluation.

Reports of leaks are not common, we receive one every couple of months. If anyone has any questions or issues, PM me here on the board and I'll connect you to someone that can help.

Over torque is the common cause of sensor issues, and the same held true for the LN Engineering magnetic drain plug. Installers that are not familiar with these products, or do not pay attention to instructions, and follow them, can create, or compound the issues.

As JFP mentions, distortions of the sump plate threads and sealing surface is the root of all evil with this. An over torque of the drain plug (even by another installer in the past with a stock drain plug) will stretch the sump plate threads and will require an insert in the threads for corrective action. We can do this for owners as well, if necessary.

The aluminum crush ring works in most all applications, but in some instances, where the sump plate has an issue, a copper crush ring found at a local parts store for a few cents will make a good band aid.

We have no problem assisting anyone who has an issue with this, and standing behind the product.

If someone has a leaky LN drain plug, we'll replace it free of charge. A few even have broken after years of service and we've warrantied them no questions asked. If we aren't given a chance to take care of a problem or are even notified that one exists, we can't fix it.

Well that's a great offer. I was going to contact you, but I bought the first drain plug through my Indy. So i didn't have a receipt for the part.

Thank you! I'll try resetting it and see what happens. It didn't look like the head of the drain plug was hitting anything. It's close but not close enough. I'll redo it and take pictures afterwards

My LN Guardian plug is leaking slightly as well. Only since my last oil change. The first 2 changes after installing there were no leaks. The car is in winter storage right now.

Would using 2 aluminum washers be of benefit in this situation? If not, how can I go about getting a replacement plug?

Thanks

It sounds like you should break torque, spin the crush washer 1/3 turn and retorque.
Double stacking crush washers sometimes helps to overcome sump
Plate deficiencies, or in the instances where the sensor contacts the inner diameter of the sump plate with the outer tip of its hex head.

A replacement sensor is available through my company.

Thanks Jake. When I get the car ready in the spring I will try the 1/3 turn trick. In the mean time it has been hovering around -20 C (-4 F) up here for the past week so it will be a couple of months before I break the car out of the deep freeze. Which makes me think; could the sub zero temperature cause the plug to 'unseal' slightly and allow a small leak? Just wondering since i know aluminum can expand and contract.

Any temperature changes and cycles can do that, given the opportunity.

At one point, I reinstalled a standard drain plug out of frustration, and it did not leak.

Because its very soft and will conform to mis- machined surfaces better than anything else you can find.

You guys are throwing every excuse out there. Maybe just admit a defective product? Nah...
It's the customers fault, as always ;)

A lot of us do our own oil changes with the stock plug and never have an issue. Seems like LN plugs leak if you don't get them tight enough, leak if you use correct torque and crack and leak if too tight.
That points to a bad product. You say it's not common, yet I've read more reports of leaking LN plugs over the years than I can keep track of.

Good on you for offering replacements, but quit blaming the customer and own up. ;)

I was offering a technical reason for some of the things that are experienced. Thats all.

The consumer can blame the product, and the manufacturer can blame the consumer/ installer. This does no good, all that we can do is treat each case technically, and try to understand the variables that can cause anything to happen to any product.

What matters is no matter why someone has had an issue, I've always replaced an MCD sensor, no questions asked (even when someone crashed their car and had an issue, we would sell them a replacement for cost). I have done this with someone when their product was out of warranty for 5 years.

Unless someone tries to take advantage of us, or unless they become a jerk, we treat everyone the way we'd expect to be treated if the roles were reversed.

Will add to the fire - first magnetic LN plug cracked, new LN plug leaks. I also bought a standard oil plug for when I'm fed up with the LN plug leak.

Maybe the 986 has an awefully troublesome oil pan but I gotta say, have never had issues with any oil plug ever until now - infact most could be just barely tighter than finger tight and still seal.

The original post was about the IMS Guardian MCD sensor, not the LN Magnetic drain plug. The two units are not the same material, and are not even made in the same factory. They share nothing in common. They are also not offered by the same company.

A drain plug has no reason to be super tight, it is not a fastener; it only needs enough pre- load to crush the sealing washer and stay in place. The last poster stating that just beyond finger tight is ok, is something I agree with. This is why the MCD sensor torque is 19#.

Jake – if the problem is indeed ‘over-torqueing’ then read-on.

Most of the ‘vital’ hex found of prototype racing equipment are not standard DIN nor ANSI/ISO, or JIS! This is to prevent over-torqueing by trackside crew while under (human)stress.

E.g. if a 14mm hex head bolt needs a lightweight 19#, we would machine it at 13.35mm. It will simply spin-off at 19.5# without damaging the hex head and that while using a standard metric socket or wrench size (i.e if a specific torque wrench is nowhere to be found urgently, which happen a lot in the pits unfortunately).

Might worth implementing old tricks like that in your product line, still used as off today and heard F1 crews uses similar techniques. I have an old chart here that I’ve kept off from eng dept at the time, let me know what size hex you are using vs its torque spec and I’ll revert back with the correct non-standard hex size that needs to be machined. Unfortunately I cannot send out the full chart and I’m sure you understand why.

ps: there is no such thing as finger-tight in the industry. Misleading and needs clarification quick before someone think its how its done. Ppl do actually listen and trust you mate, careful ;)

Keep up the good work

Thinking this again... you'd need to provide the corresponding tolerance wrench or socket with your product which is dead cheap to manufacture anyway but perhaps impractical for you, dunno.

Call it the faultless-wrench something

Then who cares.... I'm 100% certain everybody here is only using state-of-the-art standard"ized" Snap-On tooling to wrench on their beloved Porsche anyway so they wouldn't need that complementary wrench from LN ;)

My beef is that I know exactly what's wrong with the LN magnetic drain plug, so I must assume that LN does, too. Yet, I have not seen the problem acknowledged or addressed yet. Instead, I see representatives and supporters of the product place blame on the customer.

The design is flawed...

Again, I applaud the customer service, but I'd have a lot more respect for someone that came out said, "hey, we messed up, we've noticed a design flaw and fixed it".

OK Charles, don't keep us in suspense

Anyone knows how come we don't have the smiley dude with the popcorn like other forums have?
Could be very useful right now :D

:cheers:http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1453864880.jpg

The very things touted as advantageous ;)

LN addressed the issue with OEM drain plugs stripping by providing a larger hex socket and making the plug out of a harder aluminum alloy: 6061-T6.
Great ideas, but this means the the plug wall is thinner and the material is more brittle, hence the cracks, from microscopic to large enough to be seen with the naked eye.
When you tighten a bolt, plug, etc. with a hex drive, radial force is exerted from the axis of rotation outward. Depending on the force exerted, a softer alloy will strip and a harder alloy may crack.

I'd be happier with a softer alloy and OE size hex. Please don't think I'm bashing LN or the 3 amigos as they contribute greatly to the community. I just don't agree with the "blame the end user" mentality.

At the end of the day, I just want plug that is magnetic and doesn't leak...???¿¿


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I wasn't suggesting that the problem was at the customer end Charles. What do I know. All I've seen here is one or more responses from Jake who've identified the problem as such and therefore suggested a tech solution to help for the problem elimination process.

Like I said above, again, "IF" the problem is indeed over-torquing as claimed by the manufacturer. Not supporting any on my own claims either bud. Only tech talks

I would say it is a product problem. Too many people with issues. I have replaced my drain plug with a new Porsche plug. My original one was stripped, it did not leak and my new one does not leak. I have many vehicles that I change oil on with no leaks at the plug. I do use new crush rings sometimes, but not always.

Update: breaking the plug, rotating it back and fourth a bit and retightening solved the leak.

Why so temperamental?

Told ya so.

It all has to do with the position that the crush ring makes final contact when the unit is tightened. If it rests on a more uneven portion of the sump plate, you'll stand a better chance of a leak. If it doesn't, it'll often seal right up with no issues.

Instead of doing this procedure of breaking torque, then re- torquing, people always feel the need to wrench down on it, and that creates bigger issues that can sometimes compromise the unit immediately. Tighter is better, right? No, thats why the unit has a torque spec.

I have had the same thing happen with factory drain plugs, which was one reason why the magnetic plug was developed in 2006. In fact, I learned this technique of breaking torque, then reapplying it with stock drain plugs, not the LN unit, or my MCD.

That said, over time we've seen a degradation of some of the crush rings too. These all are genuine, but some have an inner diameter thats .25mm too large, which makes ID of the crush ring not conform to the OD of the drain plug concentrically. This further aggravates the issue, and makes it more of a risk of not seating perfectly. The same thing holds true with the crush rings that seal under the chain tensioners, tons of issues with those, (genuine Porsche) to the point that we had to have our own manufactured.

Another variable is the oil thats used... One reason I hate Mobil 1 with a passion, is because it will leak when nothing else will, due to its composition. Oils that use an additive package that includes Chlorinated Paraffin always tend to leak worse than anything else. I have seen times when an engine would have leaks with M1, and the oil was changed, and the leaks went away. This is especially true with aircooled Porsche engines. Some additive packages based on esters will also cause this to be more of an issue, so even oil is an uncontrollable variable.

I believe in owning any mistake, and in my world I take it on the chin all the time with new developments that don't work out in testing. At the same time, when you have scenarios like this, that have a ton of technical variables present, each case can have a different root cause. Luck plays into it too, if the crush gasket lands in the wrong spot you'll have a leak, and that could be Porsche's fault (machining of sump plate, or crush ring), a driver's fault from hitting some road hazard with the sump plate, or the installers fault, only because he touched it.

This also means it could be my fault, or Charles' fault, too, and everything is always our fault. When the finger pointing exercise begins, the part that was added on always get the finger first- no matter what. No one can manage, or control these variables. In this type of situation, all that can be done is supporting the sale, and offering a replacement unit, hoping thats good enough. This thread has proven that its not good enough.