Let's talk about seats for the Track
 

I've read a ton of threads, with lots of information about various seats being used at the track. None of these threads was specific to SEATS ONLY, but rather had information mixed-in. AND, since I am runnin' scared that someone might melt down again if I start talking about seats in a thread about roll bars....

Can y'all help me with a couple questions, and then this can really go somewhere.

For a track seat, are there certifications required, like there are for harness webbing, helmets etc? Do those requirements change when only doing D/E and TT? (No roll cage)

And: are the seats I see on Ebay and elsewhere, (or even the solid brand names like corbeau and Momo) that are hinged like an oem seat still acceptable for use with a 5-pt harness? Or are those strictly poseur?

Like these

or these (but $1000 shipping?!!?)

With the suspension mods I've made this year, I'm expecting the next weak-spot to be the seat. I'm expecting to be thrown around in that cabin. alot. So with the splits now showing-up in my leather on the OEM seats, this may be a good time to consider a change.

What are y'all using?
1thenaton had a good thread here which also addresses the height of the factory roll-bar for mounting harnesses to.

I'm looking for your opinions, advice, thoughts, and feel free to hijack the thread if you feel it absolutely necessary. :dance:

Thanks All!

When you say "track seat" are you referring to just track days, or racing with a sanctioning body, as the answer will differ based on that. For track days, unless the entity you are running with has specific rules in place, any seat you choose to run, as long as it is securely mounted (if they have a tech inspection, this will come into play), you should be good.

For racing, which may include TT, there are more stringent rules, and vary by sanctioning body. My experience is that most will allow "expired" seats with additional mounting modifications. But, I would go through the rules of any sanctioning body you plan on running with and pick the most restrictive rules to abide by.

Ultimately, the answer to your certification question is: it depends. It depends on the organization you are running with and what activity you are doing with them.

Personally, I would only buy an ebay seat that's from a manufacturer that is known and reputable ... Corbeau, Momo, Recaro, etc. Having been in a few track accidents, one that resulted in a broken back, safety is one area that I will spend extra on. I don't have a personal preference in a hinged seat versus a full bucket, for non-racing (and I include TT in racing) application - I've used Corbeaus for autocross and track days and would do so again. But, I feel there is less risk in those activities than full racing.

Hmm, good points I should've clarified.
I have to keep pretending this is a street car, so my wife let's me keep it. (I'm exaggerating a little bit... not entirely) So I won't be putting-in a roll cage. That excludes me from racing, but not time trials with NASA and PCA. Those are the two sanctioning organizations I'm running with. Both organizations seem to have a "loose" set of rules for TT. I think PCA's makes the most sense, but NASA's seem to simply keep referring to "per the racing rules" on most items. I've been scouring their forums, etc, trying to determine what's specific to TT and not D/E. Most references say any car that qualifies for DE also qualifies for TT.

I agree with you about spending money when it matters, but I do NOT like plunkin' down cash-ola just because somebody has a recognized brand. I wanna know why it's better. And this is sorta one of the questions: is a seat a place where it matters. You've suggested that it does. But there is such a wide disparity of seats and pricing that I feel like I'm entering a candy store looking for something sweet. y'know?

Hinged seats aren't really gonna matter in a Boxster like they do in a 911. PCA says IF you have roll bar, you MUST have harnesses. And if you have harnesses you MUST have head and neck restraint (aka HANS or similar - I personally like the Flex by Schroth). And to that point, restraints must be equal for driver and passenger for DE... i.e you cannot wear a harness but passenger (instructor or student) only use 3pt. My DE car has buckets, 'harness' bar and harnesses. If I take a student out who doesn't have a HANS, then neither of us can wear my harnesses, we MUST use OEM 3pt. In which case I grab my other helmet and wear my Simpson Hybrid S (which I use w/ intro/intermediate students as MOST do not have harnesses... and I ain't sitting right seat w/ out it!).

So, back to as @iancole said, it depends. Figure out what exactly you want to do and who you plan to drive w/. Then build a system which complies and allows for some expansion.

PS - IF you add harnesses, don't buy garbage seat belt "cancellers" off eBay/amazon. Buy real DOT standard seatbelt extenders and just cut off the extra receptacles (leave webbing attached to tongue portion for easy grabbing). Garbage ones break easily and fishing broken pieces out would be a real PITA... I narrowly dodged a bullet when a student accidentally snapped on one of mine getting in the car. Luckily w/ some Gorilla tape and a steady head I had enough 'meat' left on the bone to extract easily.

https://www.seatbeltextenderpros.com/porsche-boxster-seat-belt-extender/
(regular 7" is what I use)

And yes, seats DEFINITELY matter - do not skimp on safety.

There are only 4 bolts holding your seat (holding you) to the car. What if the bolts are strong but the metal frame is made of crap steel and aluminum from who knows where? You put two wheels off on a back straight of track XYZ doing 200' per second... Slight lift and bang a little snap over-steer shoots your car back across track into an armco. Want steel/alum of unknown quality and origin making up your seat frame body and rails?

Learn from Ryan Newman at Daytona two weeks ago... He walked out of the hospital 2 days later. Dale Sr. 19 years prior had a much less severe incident (to say the least) at same track which tragically took his life (he wouldn't wear a HANS...).

Do not skimp on safety.

Good luck :)

Good reason to have your harnesses hard mounted to the car/body/roll bar.

If you are buying a fixed back racing seat get one from a manufacture that meets FIA regs. That means Recaro, Sparco, OMP, Racetech to name a few.

You only need an "in" date seat if you are racing with an organization that requires it. NASA, for instance, will let you use an expired composite seat with a seat back brace and that brace doesn't even have to be mounted correctly, just present.

For your local interests in TT or DE, You just need to meet or exceed stock/OEM Seat/harness. If you upgrade, NASA is good with expired equipment as long as it is in good condition. PCA is getting much pickier. They now seem to think expired 6 point harnesses are less safe that 40 year old 3 point belts. Also if you use a multi point harness you must have a fixed back seat, roll bar and a HANS, actually good policy.

The rollbar on the Boxster is just fine to attach the shoulder harness to with 6 point belts (don't even bother with 5 point). You can use the stock lap belt mounting points, just get proper mounting hardware for the new belts. You need to drill two holes for the sub mounts. Get backing plates or big washer to reinforce the mounting points.

To echo again- Don't skimp on safety

Max, what are ya, some kind of "super- lurker"? "You don't (post) much, but when ya do, it's straight and to the point and I salute you for it" (movie reference)
https://youtu.be/IZocpwWLsyE

That right there cut some meat off the bone for me.
The only reason I'd change seats is to be able to use a multi-point harness. So this answers most of what I needed to know.


Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Super-Lurker - pretty much

Don't forget about the equal restraint rule in PCA. When you do the seat/harness it's x2.

I have refused to instruct individuals at NASA events when that wasn't the case.

Yup. I heard that was new last year (or was it the year before) and I was sorta surprised it wasn't like that before. I'd hate getting tossed about with a 3-pt while driver was tucked in nicely with a 6-pt.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

good point.

Brey-Krause makes an adapter that allows the sub belts to be wrapped under the seat so you don't have to drill through the body, if that bothers you

https://www.bkauto.com/R_9044_Seat_Floor_Mount_Adapter_p/r-9044.htm

Sub mounts like that are great for those with street cars wanting to run multi point belts.

If you are actually racing PCA Club Race rules state: "Harnesses cannot be mounted to the seat or seat rail. Mounting must be to the chassis backed by large diameter washers (if stock mounts are not used) or to the roll bar."

NASA doesn't seem to have that particular requirement on harness mounting, but they do reiterate: "Large diameter mounting washers should be used to spread the load. Bolting through floor panels etc. is not acceptable without required washers."

The PCA DE minimum standards do not require this. From the DE minimum standards:

The participant should BE AWARE that the addition of such a seat and harness system results in the occupant being fastened upright in the vehicle. Therefore, in order to have a COMPLETE SYSTEM, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage is recommended, and an approved head and neck restraint device is required.

Granted a region may choose be more strict than the minimum standards, so it may be wise to check with the PCA regions you are planning to drive with.

You just reminded me of something: I have one of these Brey-Krause 9044 sub belt bars to sell for super cheap. Someone please ping me if interested. We're moving soon, and the less stuff to move, the better. This one has been barely used. For someone in the San Francisco Bay Area, even better if we can avoid shipping cost.

The best thing you can do is sit in as many different brands as you can. The seat dimension sheets are helpful but the seats vary greatly even with similar numbers. Until my car died - I was shopping for new halo seat and some I thought would fit - weren't very comfortable.

Yes and I bought a Cobra GT Width halo seat (now sold) that did not fit me in the shoulders and so was not usable. Go to an autocross or an HPDE and sit in as many cars as possible with seats, or if there is a performance parts dealer, go there and sit in the seats. Anybody in North FL that wants to sit in some Recaro Profi XL seats, or if you ever see me and my car at a track day, or at the Amelia Island Werks Reunion this Friday, just ask. I have probably had a dozen folks sit in my seats, and several of them have that same seat now.

I have that harness bar available if you do end up moving forward with seats/harnesses. Worked great and your shoulders will thank you

I’m interested in your harness bar. I sent you a private message.

Sorry, I'm late (again) to the party!

Rule #1 is never skimp on safety equipment. And that includes your seat.

I wouldn't use an eBay knockoff seat on the track regardless of the level of event (DE, TT, or racing). They are worse than a stock seat.

Furthermore, I wouldn't use a an eBay knockoff seat on the street.

Why? Because a knock off seat has no safety testing.

Would your wife want you risking your health just save $300-$500? Impact testing is important. That is why car manufacturers (and true race component manufacturers) do it.

So where does this leave you? There are a couple of options.

First, you could buy authentic Porsche seats like the 996 GT-3 seats. But they are expensive.

Second, you could buy a racing seat from a reputable component manufacturer that is FIA certified. That means it's been safety tested.

There are two other options that might work but aren't good ideas:

Not Good Idea #1: Buy a new or used FIA racing seat that is out of date (the certification has expired). The seat is most likely perfectly good and safe to use on the track, but most officials won't be pleased if they find the certification expired. The truth is that you can probably get away with it in TT, but its not a good idea.

Not Good Idea #2: Buy a sport seat from a well known and reputable manufacturer. The problem with sport seats is that most do not have the bottom cushion cut out for the sub belt(s), aka a seat designed for a four-point harness. If you're going to use harnesses, then you need to use a 5 or 6-pt belt system to keep you in the seat.

Believe me, when I put seats and harnesses in my street Boxster to make it more of a track car, I hated spending $700 on a FIA seat, $200 on a 6-pt harness, $200 in mounts, and $250 for installation. And then I spent the exact same amount for the passenger side.

And those were the same components in the car when I had two racing incidents. I'm not saying that something will happen, but you never know. Neither of those incidents were my fault, both times someone else royally screwed up and collected me. But I sure was glad that I had really good equipment when it happened (and I walked away with no injuries except a couple of bruises both times).

As you can see, I never talked about what NASA or PCA requires. I talk about what you and your wife and your family require. And they require that you come home healthy after every track weekend. Period. End of story. End of discussion. There is no leeway for them in that requirement. You HAVE to come home safe. So do it right and then you won't have to worry about whether your equipment is up to the task of protecting you.

As always, good advice and welcomed.
Question:
When you took the plunge to put a fixed position racing seat in your street boxster, did you also do a roll cage? And did it remain your street boxster?
I'm wondering how a racing seat will get along on the street.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

The best advice so far!

Maytag - I ran fixed back seats (Recaro Profi SPG) in my Boxster and M3 for years on the street as they were dual purpose cars. No issues, just a little harder to get in and out of the car.

As other have said, sit in as many seats as you can to find one that works for you.

I'ma go sit in YOUR seat.....
Maybe I'm wrong, but I sorta THINK of us as similar size? :cheers:

For me, Recaro Profi SPG (non-XL version) was like a child seat - the shoulder belt holes were in the right location and Shoulder wings were a good fit. (vs Recaro Pole Position which was too low) but my butt could barely fit in the seat, 36" waist, 34" inseam, 6'2" 240-245 pounds. But I could fit if I jammed in there very tight. I used to have one on my passenger side but I sold it and replaced with another Profi XL. If your waist is smaller it might be a great fit for you :cheers:

Tom,

What is your take on proper seat mounting, bolting to the floor or otherwise. There are some discussions below.

proper seat mounting? Do you mean like sliders vs planted mounts or?

Maytag, for a dual purpose car, the recaro 996 "alien" seats are perfection. They are expensive, but they don't loose value, so consider them a bank account that you sit on. Plus they bolt right in.

would you say they are comfortable enough to use on a daily basis but also supportive enough to be used as track seats?

do they bolt straight to the stock sliders?

I would say yes, they are comfy for every day, but that depends on a few things. They are, like most fixed back seats, a bit tricky to get into and out of and if you are daily driving several hours, you may grow tired of them. For a 30 minute commute, no problems.

They are also supportive at the track, no issues there.

They come with sliders, so its literally a bolt in affair.

I almost never seen them come up for sale without the sliders and sometimes they even have seat belt receptacles too. Usually for around $3000. I have sat in several of them and they feel good to me. It was just a happenstance that I ended up with Recaro Profi XL as I was looking for these.

No, I installed racing seats and harnesses without a roll cage. I used the stock 3-pt belts when I drove on the street and the 6-pt harness when I was on the track. Otherwise the car was stock (see photo).

The only problem with a racing seat on the street is that you have to lift your butt up to get over the tall side when you get in/out. Also, it might take a little practice to get the seat belt into the stock seat belt receptacle (which is between the tall seat side and the center console. Otherwise, it worked great and was comfortable for even 6 hour drives.

This seat was installed using the stock slider and a Brey-Krause seat mount (adapter).

The harnesses hadn't been installed yet when this photo was taken:

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1584072513.jpg

Nice!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

With the stock or any aftermarket slider the seat may be a bit high for some and you may not pass the "broomstick test" with the stock roll bar.

Yes, this can be a problem for taller drivers (I am pretty average in height at 5'10"). The easy first step is to modify the mounting holes in the BK mount to lower the seat. That can probably buy an inch or so.

Of course, there is only so much adjustment that can be gained from off the shelf components, so if you're as tall as a sasquatch, then you might need to delete the slider entirely or create a custom mounting solution.

And, of course, there’s always the Brey-Krause roll bar extension which adds a couple of inches of clearance. The top, hard or soft, closes over it with no problem.

My seat experience:
I’m a bout 5’10”, but a very high waist. When I shopped around for seats I went to my local race shop and sat in all the seats I could. Arrived at sparco rev 2s. What I didn’t realize at the time was that the rev 2 is a super tall seat, but I got a pretty nice deal from rallymerchandise.eu.

Got second hand Brey Krause brackets and tried to mount. The width of the seat put it right against the center console. The height with sliders had it protruding above the roll bar. Brey Krause sells brackets with sub strap to replace the stock sliders... I ended up having to use them to hard mount. The adjustment range with these brackets is too far between increments... could never get the exact right distance from the pedals, but found a spot that is almost perfect.

Got a schroth profi 2x2 harness of ebay a few months later and rev 2 head and neck restraint. People don’t tell you when you get a seat for track duty, but it’s kind of a slippery slope. You get the seat. Feel awesome. Figure it’s easy to throw in a harness. Then realize to use the harness on track, you should use head and neck restraint.

If you keep track of how much this probably cost... and consider I did both seats, I’m somewhere near 2k all in. That said... absolutely love this setup. Track seats are a must. Harness helps a lot too. Rev 2s are too damn tall for me, but width wise, my 33 in waist is actually also too small... but it still grips so good and is pretty comfortable when not on track. I clip and Unclip in the harness when I get to track events, just leaving in the top straps behind my seat when I’m not at the track. Love the setup. Would recommend.

As others mentioned, it is not easy getting in and out of the car, especially with stock steering wheel, but you learn the technique. I still use my 3 pt when I’m not at the track. It’s weird though because I strap through the seat on the outboard side, over the seat on the inboard side. Velcro to keep the buckle in the right spot. Still requires a special technique to buckle properly. Anyway, hoping my experience helps someone.