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-   -   what's the right (engine) oil level for the track (http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-racing-forum/34071-whats-right-engine-oil-level-track.html)

ChrisZang 02-23-2012 07:17 AM

what's the right (engine) oil level for the track
 
I am sitting here, enjoying the warm California morning sun which is putting my mind in spring mode and therefore into get-ready-for-the-track-mode

So I wanted to collect a few opinions what's the best oil level for the track

Thesis A) fill it up to the brim to avoid oil starvation in high g-force turns (I also have a LN engineering oil sump extension for that)

Thesis B) make it only half full to avoid flooding the AOS in high g-force long sweeping left turns

So what's your formula?

Topless 02-23-2012 07:41 AM

Top of the normal range on the dash gauge but careful not to overfill. I check it before each run session. So far no starvation issues and original AOS from 98.

ppbon 02-23-2012 07:42 AM

After having seen several engines blow at the track...
 
... including my own, I am convinced that the Boxster NEEDS an Accusump system, especially when using sticky tires.
It doesn't matter whether you have the oil pan extension or the Motorsport AOS or the X-51 Baffles in the sump or anything other than an Accusump or a dry sump system.
The oil will creep up the sides of the sump and the pump will suck air.
One or two, or three laps like this won't kill the engine, but you do 3 or 4 20 minute sessions and the damage you're doing to the engine is unquestionable.
Take a look at my latest video and watch the gauges in the middle.
The right gauge is the engine's oil pressure.
The left gauge is the Accusump's pressure.
The center gauge is oil temp.
At 4:33 into the video the engine oil pressure sender's wire broke and you'll see the right gauge at zero. The left gauge (Accusump) still shows it's working.


If it weren't for the Accusump at every high-speed turn the engine's oil pressure would drop to zero, even though the RPMs are at 6-7K.
With the Accusump you see that as soon as the engine's oil pressure drops below 35 psi, the Accusump opens it's release valve and kicks up the engine's pressure.

Lap@Sebring.mov - YouTube

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

ChrisZang 02-23-2012 08:42 AM

Pedro,

please, please, please tell us how you managed to get the oil temp

Thanks
Chris

ppbon 02-23-2012 09:18 AM

The oil temperature...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisZang (Post 279506)
Pedro,

please, please, please tell us how you managed to get the oil temp

Thanks
Chris

... sender is tapped into my Accusump plumbing, but you can install it in several places, depending where you want to read the oil temp.
There are 2 ports on the top of the engine that can accept an oil pressure/temperature sensor.
I've tapped into the oil pan for a customer and welded a bung on the oil cooler for another one.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/ppbon/accu2.jpg

The gauge ... call me and i can help you with it.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j3...on/3Gauges.jpg

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Brad Roberts 02-23-2012 09:56 AM

Chris?

lol

For $20 you can go and buy a oil temp setup that goes in place of the dipstick...

The question is: what exactly are you going to do with the information you gather? I can tell you now, you need an external cooler. See? That saved you a lot of hassle :) Do you know what oil temp is good or bad? Most people don't without a Google search :)

ChrisZang 02-23-2012 10:06 AM

@ Brad,

I am trying to diagnose a mysterious drop of oil pressure during track days.
In a nutshell: In the middle of the session the oil pressure drops from 5 to between 1 and 2 on my 996 cluster's oil pressure gauge (I am assuming it's measured in bar)
This happens everywhere on the track including the straights (oil pressure is still low at the end of the main straight in T'Hill at high RPM) and stays low even after I back to the pits.
Eventually as the engine cools down, the oil pressure comes back up.
So I am pretty sure it's not high-g oil starvation :rolleyes:
My most likely explanation is engine overheating.
I already replaced the waterpump and installed low-temp thermostat - the symptoms remain the same.
So I wanted to watch the oil temp and see if there's a connection with high oil temp and loss of oil pressure

Brad, can you point me to a solution for oil cooling that won't break the bank?

Brad Roberts 02-23-2012 10:07 AM

Quote:

One or two, or three laps like this won't kill the engine, but you do 3 or 4 20 minute sessions and the damage you're doing to the engine is unquestionable.
I'll be tearing apart a Boxster engine that has seen track/autoX/DE/time trial duty since 03. All done on Hoosiers/Kumho/Toyo/Hankooks. This is a car with 200k on the chassis and 80k on the engine. It was not a back marker, it traveled to tracks all over CA. and made trips to Texas to run PCA Club racing events. It has not seen the street since 05. We change the oil every two event weekends.

I have run Accusumps for 23+ years at this point in 4cyl SCCA Porsche 914's (I know their benefit) but I'm not going to drink the Coolaide (just yet) on the Boxsters. We are building our 20th 9X6/9X7 engine this week for the car that never had an Accusump. I have cars nationwide running with and without them.. guy's who set track records with NASA/PCA (not back markers who's information is worthless to me)

I've seen in data what you are seeing (been seeing it for years) but I also trust the oil that I'm running. I have also been involved with "engine blow" contests and watched engines run with NO oil for 20+ minutes (no load).. with camshafts sawed in half, cranks sawed in half,rods.. you name it.

Can I put together an Accusump kit and sell the S_H_I_T out of them? yes. You know how many phone calls Charles and I had about this prior to him releasing a "kit" LOL (a lot)

I choose not to sell people S_H_I_T they don't need.


B

Brad Roberts 02-23-2012 10:11 AM

Chris,

what weight oil? When is the next oil change?


B

Brad Roberts 02-23-2012 10:16 AM

Chris,

I have data from Thundehrill back in Oct. Nov. time frame. Let me take a look at what our pressures were doing that weekend. We are running 10/60 oil, the air temp that weekend was in the mid 70's. We were running 2:06's counterclockwise with the crows nest on Hoosier's.

I know our water temp is rarely over 205. If the oil had been doing something out the of ordinary, I'd remember it :)



B

ChrisZang 02-23-2012 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Roberts (Post 279525)
Chris,

what weight oil? When is the next oil change?

B

Initially 15-W-50, then I switched to 10-W-40 both Mobil 1 - no change of symptoms
Next oil change will be before Thunderhill
I already stocked up on Redline 10-W-40

During the oil change I will also replace the bolt and spring unit in the oil pump (forgot the official name) which is supposed to regulate oil pressure

jaykay 02-23-2012 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Roberts (Post 279519)
Chris?

lol

For $20 you can go and buy a oil temp setup that goes in place of the dipstick...

The question is: what exactly are you going to do with the information you gather? I can tell you now, you need an external cooler. See? That saved you a lot of hassle :) Do you know what oil temp is good or bad? Most people don't without a Google search :)

I would be interested in this set up....just to compare what I get as compared to others' know danger values

All I need to do is be able to see that things are way too hot and get off

jaykay 02-23-2012 11:29 AM

Thanks Pedro. This is some very convincining real time data.

I would like to see this demo with someone running a windage tray. Anybody have data or experience running a deep sump, baffle, and windage tray?

Not too sure how many out there run them. It is an old idea but I feel it to be a key feature. I have one in mine to keep the oil from climbing the walls of the sump......trapping it; I hope!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ppbon (Post 279503)
... including my own, I am convinced that the Boxster NEEDS an Accusump system, especially when using sticky tires.
It doesn't matter whether you have the oil pan extension or the Motorsport AOS or the X-51 Baffles in the sump or anything other than an Accusump or a dry sump system.
The oil will creep up the sides of the sump and the pump will suck air.
One or two, or three laps like this won't kill the engine, but you do 3 or 4 20 minute sessions and the damage you're doing to the engine is unquestionable.
Take a look at my latest video and watch the gauges in the middle.
The right gauge is the engine's oil pressure.
The left gauge is the Accusump's pressure.
The center gauge is oil temp.
At 4:33 into the video the engine oil pressure sender's wire broke and you'll see the right gauge at zero. The left gauge (Accusump) still shows it's working.


If it weren't for the Accusump at every high-speed turn the engine's oil pressure would drop to zero, even though the RPMs are at 6-7K.
With the Accusump you see that as soon as the engine's oil pressure drops below 35 psi, the Accusump opens it's release valve and kicks up the engine's pressure.

Lap@Sebring.mov - YouTube

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro


Jittsl 02-23-2012 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ppbon (Post 279503)
... including my own, I am convinced that the Boxster NEEDS an Accusump system, especially when using sticky tires.
It doesn't matter whether you have the oil pan extension or the Motorsport AOS or the X-51 Baffles in the sump or anything other than an Accusump or a dry sump system.
The oil will creep up the sides of the sump and the pump will suck air.
One or two, or three laps like this won't kill the engine, but you do 3 or 4 20 minute sessions and the damage you're doing to the engine is unquestionable.
Take a look at my latest video and watch the gauges in the middle.
The right gauge is the engine's oil pressure.
The left gauge is the Accusump's pressure.
The center gauge is oil temp.
At 4:33 into the video the engine oil pressure sender's wire broke and you'll see the right gauge at zero. The left gauge (Accusump) still shows it's working.


If it weren't for the Accusump at every high-speed turn the engine's oil pressure would drop to zero, even though the RPMs are at 6-7K.
With the Accusump you see that as soon as the engine's oil pressure drops below 35 psi, the Accusump opens it's release valve and kicks up the engine's pressure.

Lap@Sebring.mov - YouTube

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro, I would suggest that there was something wrong with the engine's oil pressure gauge long before it failed. Is that what you normally see? I also have an oil pressure gauge that I can see in my video and I have never seen it dropping under brakes (let alone around right hand corners) the way yours does. It doesn't appear as if the car is pushing particularily hard and yet any movement away from dead flat and the pressure drops - and that's with an accusump!

If that was typical I doubt these motors would last five minutes. I would be interested to see your next video after you make repairs to the wiring and (might I suggest) you swap the inputs to the two gauges to see if the response is still the same. I am taking it as a given that the oil level was correct. Just for the record, where did you attach your oil pressure sender?

Topless 02-23-2012 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jittsl (Post 279576)
Pedro, I would suggest that there was something wrong with the engine's oil pressure gauge long before it failed. Is that what you normally see? I also have an oil pressure gauge that I can see in my video and I have never seen it dropping under brakes (let alone around right hand corners) the way yours does. It doesn't appear as if the car is pushing particularily hard and yet any movement away from dead flat and the pressure drops - and that's with an accusump!

If that was typical I doubt these motors would last five minutes. I would be interested to see your next video after you make repairs to the wiring and (might I suggest) you swap the inputs to the two gauges to see if the response is still the same. I am taking it as a given that the oil level was correct. Just for the record, where did you attach your oil pressure sender?

+1 agreed. No way the oil pressure is varying like that on every corner. Faulty gauge.

jaykay 02-23-2012 08:29 PM

Interesting discussion thanks all!

Okay I will have to get a gauge put in ....it may be digital to save space not sure if I will be okay without the sweep of a needle
....so I can learn what the normal response might look like

I have dealt oil pressure in aircraft only; it is steady or you have serious problems....oh and old MGB...not sure I believed any gauge on that panel

Brad Roberts 02-23-2012 10:24 PM

Quote:

oh and old MGB
They had oil pressure? :)



B

Brad Roberts 02-23-2012 10:25 PM

I didn't watch Pedro's video... but now that I see it is from Sebring, I'll pull up some data I have from last years PCA Club race and take a look at it!!



B

san rensho 02-24-2012 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Roberts (Post 279604)
They had oil pressure? :)



B

Exactly. How can a car that has all its oil on the undersides of the car (from oil leaks) have oil pressure?

Jittsl 02-24-2012 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by san rensho (Post 279612)
Exactly. How can a car that has all its oil on the undersides of the car (from oil leaks) have oil pressure?

Now that is funny. :)


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