Cooling System Maintenance ?
 

Just curious how many of you have done some sort of cooling system maintenance on 2002 or older Boxsters? More specifically coolant flushing and hose replacement front to rear?

My 2000 has approximately 73,000 miles and I've done nothing except install the updated coolant tank cap. I'm not sure what if anything the PO did.

I've read about the occasional coolant tank replacement due to cracks and radiator cleaning, but don't often hear about replacing the hoses and coolant.

Just curious and wondering if I should be servicing these items with the age and miles on my car?

Thanks,

ddb

Except for the cap, all stock on my 01 with about 60k.

Hi,

Porsche claims their coolant is Lifetime, but don't believe it. It is simply a silicate and phosphate free Glycol based coolant. This s/b changed every 5 years/150k mi. (whichever comes 1st) in order to provide maximum corrosion protection. It is the organic carboxylates which breakdown after this interval.

Instead of buying the super-expensive Porsche Coolant, Zerex Extreme Life 5/150, Texaco Extended Life, Shell Rotella® ELC Extended Life Coolant, UNI-GARD
5/150, Mercury Extended Life Coolant Anti-Freeze, all meet or exceed Porsche Coolant requirements and are much cheaper. Use of any other type coolant is not compatible with the system and can form a gel-like substance if mixed with the proper coolant which can then obstruct flow, create hotspots, etc. Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

true?
 

MN,
The other day I came across a "universal" coolant which claims to be compatible with everything out there.

If the claim is true, it would be a good thing for me who has to deal with everything from a 1973 to a 2002.

Your take on this?

Jim I have been thinking of flushing my coolant system even if I don't change out the oil cooler,just cause it has been in the car it's whole life. Now that whole process of running the car at 2,500 RPM for 10 minutes with the revs up to 5k and then running it at 2,500 RPMS for another 10 with revs to 5k again every 30 seconds,is that needed?

Hi,

It may well be compatible, but that's no recommendation to mix it with other types. There are basically two types of Coolant out there (there are more, but the differences aren't really relevant for this discussion). Both are usually Glycol based (either Propylene Glycol, or Ethylene Glycol).

In addition to the base fluid, there are a small amount of other ingredients including corrosion inhibitors, antifoaming agents, dyes and other additives. While these other ingredients make up only a small fraction of the overall coolant, they are what differentiate one coolant from another.

Conventional Coolants typically use a Phosphate/ Silicate mix as the main components in their Inhibitor pkg. Conventional inhibitors like Silicates and Phosphates work by forming a protective layer that actually insulates the metals in the engine and Radiator from the Coolant. These inhibitors can be characterized chemically as Inorganic Oxides (silicates, phosphates, borates, etc.). Because these Inhibitor Pkgs. are depleted by forming this protective layer, conventional Coolants need to be changed at regular intervals, usually every two years.

But, in Europe, with unusually hard water (compared to the US), minerals forced Coolants to be Phosphate-free. Calcium and Magnesium, minerals found in hard water, will react with Phosphate Inhibitors to form Calcium or Magnesium Phosphate, this can cause the formation of scale on hot engine surfaces. This results in a loss of heat transfer and/or corrosion under the layer of scale.

Instead of Phosphates, conventional European coolants contain a mix of Inorganic Oxides like Silicates and Inhibitors called Carboxylates. Carboxylates differ in their corrosion protection in that they chemically interact with the metal at corrosion sites in the engine, instead of forming a layer of Inhibitors that cover the total surface.

In Asia, where the water is OK, Silicates are the problem. Issues with water pump seals, heat transfer, toxicity and non-biodegradability led to a ban of coolants containing Silicate. To provide protection, most coolants contain a mix of Carboxylates and Inorganic Inhibitors like Phosphates.

Extended-Life Coolants are usually Carboxylate-based and were developed to be globally acceptable and provide superior performance over existing chemistry. This chemistry is also known as Organic Additive Technology (OATs). Because full Carboxylate coolants have no Silicates, they meet the stringent requirements of the Asian specifications, but they also meet the European coolant requirements because they have no phosphates. These coolants have developed international popularity due to having an unsurpassed corrosion protection for extended time intervals. They have the added benefit of working better, being non-toxic and are biodegradable.

In these Coolants (which is what Porsche uses) the corrosion protection is provided by Carboxylates. Carboxylate Inhibitors provide corrosion protection by chemically interacting with the metal surfaces where needed, not by laying down insulating layers. This allows: extended life cycles, unsurpassed high temperature aluminum protection, as well as heat transfer advantages on both hot engine surfaces and radiator tubes where heat transfer is critical. But, it can still breakdown in usually a 5yr./150k mi. interval. Porsche calls it Lifetime for Marketing purposes. They expect the average car will have it's cooling system opened or drained for Service sometime in it's Coolant's 5-year life span and have it's Coolant replaced then. Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

when i had my cap problem, i flushed mine w the yellow bottle Prestone, said for all cars and all models.
and it was like 274359832758374 times cheaper than porsche coolant.
no problems with it

Hi,

Yes, these run-in procedures are very important to insure that all air is purged from the system. You don't want an air bubble in say the head creating a hotspot and possibly burning a valve, cracking a piston, the head, and such...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Hi,

That was probably not the best thing. The coolant you describe contains silicates and these can form a gel reducing/blocking Coolant Flow, this problem has come up on several Boxsters.

In addition, this type of Coolant insulates the metal of the engine (read below) and causes a reduced heat transfer (not a good thing on an alloy engine). If it were me, I'd drain it and flush it ASAP and use the proper Extended-Life Coolant...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Jim, where can i purschase those other coolants you mentioned above?
a local napa/pepboys/autozone?

The Texaco extended life coolant is available at Kragen.

i dont know of a Kragen around chicago area....

damn just notied this is my 900th post :cheers:

Dj, you should be able to find this stuff at any of the many auto parts chain centers in the Chicago area like Murray's Discount Auto.

ok thx, ill look into it.

Nice to hear from someone who (appears to) know..
 

... what they are talking about. I suspected it was not permanent, btu not being a chem-e, I wasn;t really sure.

I have always serviced coolent ~5-7 years "need it or not"

Of course, I've always had timing belts and water pumpts to do at that time anyway .....

Grant

Which leads me to a question- I always hear that you should always use distilled water whenever mixing with coolant, but wonder- Do dealers really carry a huge tank of distilled water back in the service area when they do coolant flushes? I personally doubt it, and would think that they'd be using plain tap water. Anyone know for sure?

Dealer's Probably Don't, But
 

that doesn't mean you shouldn't. The dealer's agenda is different than yours. Any problems developing with your car next year is very good for the dealer, but not so good for you. Distilled water will ensure no added mineral deposits, prolonging the life of your cooling system.

I have a related question;

What is the "Normal" level of coolant when the engine is cold?
(as looking at the level indicator on the reservoir)

When cold my level indicator shows just over the minimum, when hot is is at the Max level.

On my SUV the coolant reservoir shows the same level wheather cold of hot.

-T

Hi,

The Manual states that the Coolant level s/b checked when it is COLD and that the fill mark should lie between the MIN and MAX indexes. Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

well if you leave a bottle of regular water sit for 24hrs its the same thing as distilled water, or something like that

Not likely. I wouldn't try this method if you intend to use this water in your Porsche.

Go to the store and get real distilled water if you intend to flush your system yourself.

OTOH, you could use filtered water... but I bet store bought distilled water is even more pure.


Why risk putting crap in your PORSCHE??

Hi,

Sorry, distilled water is water which is boiled, or otherwise evaporated, to vapor which is captured and recondensed into a liquid. All Minerals and other impurities are left behind in this process.

Leaving Tap Water sit for 24 Hrs. will de-Chlorinate it (the Chlorine will evaporate away), but hard minerals like Calcium, Lime, and Metals will remain and you don't want these in your cooling system...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

well when i did it last time i used destilled water so no worries hehe

2001 S (38K mi)

I went to a local GoodYear, and they quoted $100 for the radiator flush + the cost of the coolant which I have to provide. I haven't found any of the recommended coolants in my Texas town (not pepboys, autozone, walmart, napa). Order online?

They use a "BG" flushing system(http://www.bg-international.net/?categoryId=1898). Does anyone know what that entails and if it is okay for a porsche?

Thanks!

Coolant Exchange Equipment
 

I have the same question; does ANYONE out there have any experience/advice/opinions on the use of the power fluid exchange system (BG does seem to be the largest supplier) on their 986/996 cooling systems?

There is a flush component to the power exchange, prior to the replacement of the new coolant. To me this system seems to be the most efficient and thorough method, as well as knowing that the old fluid is properly disposed of. But doing any harm outweighs any possible benefits, in the way of efficiency, thoroughness, PC disposal, etc.

Shops in my area are offering the BG extration/flush/replacement fo $85 + or - a few bucks. I assume that the substitution of the Extended Life Zerex or whichever of the products that Jim has listed; would add to that cost.

I'd like to do or have this done soon, so any replies will be appreciated.
Fine in '09.
Andy

I'm using this, about $12 a gallon at Wally World:

http://www.partsamerica.com/product_.../pst/af888.jpg

Thanks Paul,
But I'm trying to find out "How", as "What" has been covered....

I just don't want do do any damage via the use of the power extraction-flush-replacement service, as there are so many "unique features" on our cars; that many years of experience and common automotive sense, just don't seem to apply, sometimes...

A great example would be that there's only ONE brand, ONE type, and ONE p/n of ATF to use without damaging these goofy little ZF 5HP-19 trans units, that are the Tiptronics.... (and whatever Audi, Jaguar and several others use).

Another board member used a similar system at his father's shop without incident (well almost, he used the wrong coolant).


I do most everything myself, so all I need is the antifreeze and distilled water. It is easy to do, just takes time (probably as much as driving to the dealer, waiting for it to be done and driving home).

My way, less than $45 (3 gallons of each).

Yeah, I saw that one too.... I was (and maybe still am) going to DIY it, but I got interested in the power method service, as it would seem that with the vacuum extraction/replacement, there'd be little to no system bleeding necessary.

Also, it's not a dealer thing. There's about 10 shops in Tucson, 4 of which are "Euro-Specialists" who offer a 1/2 hour service of this kind, while you wait, with an appointment.

And at $85 for labor & materials on a messy, time consuming job; it's a deal to me....
Best,
Andy

Just remember most of those type of shops will treat your car the same as a beat up Honda and use tap water.

These are not Those Kind of shops. The two that I'm familiar with use toilet paper w/ a Porsche p/n, and are so clean, you could eat off the floor. Just about 1/2 - 2/3 the Dealer prices on parts & service... Good coffee, too.

Common knowledge is that a tech works at the Dealer 'till he learns his trade, then goes to work for or opens up his own independent shop...

But we all have our own experiences and opinions, so let's end this particular part of the discussion, as I'm only trying to get some input on a particular method of service.
Best Wishes,
Andy

If you decide to do it, make sure they get all 5 gallons out.....

If there is even the slightest question in ones mind, why would you use something that would save $20 on your $20K car. I just don't get it. Go with the same formula that the factory uses.

You are missing the point; it isn't about saving any money.

It is all about a more thorough service procedure, which MAY be better than the method described in the book. This is what I've been trying to get some information on in this forum, before my original question got hi-jacked.

I've been maintaining my Porsche cars myself, for almost 40 years now, and the last alternative is to "take it in to the Dealer"... Particularly in Tucson, as you should know, which has had one of the worst service and parts departments, over the last 3 ownerships (10+ years), that I have ever experienced, anywhere.

But I almost forgot to thank you, for confirming that my 986 is still worth more than I paid for it, 3 yeaqrs ago.

OK, I'll try to stay on point, it's just been fun so far. :)

Here's some of my thoughts:

I doubt you will find many Porsche owners that have tried this process since Porsche says our coolant is good for the lifetime of the car.

Water pumps fail sometime between 75K and 125K, change the coolant then.

I doubt this process will remove even 2/3 of the coolant.

The level of vacuum used in this process may temporarily collapse most of the radiator and heater hoses.

BTW I used to be an INDY.

Paul,
Finally! A technical opinion. All good points, as well. These are the type of considerations I was hoping for, a few posts ago....

You HAVE been having fun, haven't you. Up to this point, you had me believing that I was corresponding with Yonnie Yonson, from Visconsin...

Email makes it so difficult to fully appreciate dry subtle humor, sarcasm, leg-pulling, etc. Particularly that bit about "Porsche says" and "lifetime coolant". Those are two real knee-slappers, now that I think about it.
Adventures in Motoring,
Andy