How Screwed am I? (metal particles in oil)
 

Edit: might have found another reason for the metal in the oil container. Read my last reply.


Today was a bad day. I jacked up the car to drain out some oil to make room for 5dl of Liqui Moly Ceratec.

When i got out from under the car i noticed that the oil had a bit of "shine" to it when poured. This was under a strong LED flashlight. I got me slightly worried, as the car has only been driven less than 90 miles since oilchange last fall.:rolleyes:

When pouring the oil over to another container, my heart stopped when i found metal particles resting at the bottom! NOOOO!:eek::( See attached pictures.

A couple of them where pretty big as well, maybe 3mm. I took the particles in to the kitchen and put them under a strong magnet. No response, they are NON-magnetic.

Note that when I did the oil change last november, i dissected the oil filter and found NO metal particles what so ever (only some brown plastic):rolleyes: I did not think to look for oil shine then as i did not use a LED flashlight. The car had done 1550 miles on the oil I changed. Could it be that the metal is just debris from the block, that just sits on the bottom of the sump? As the filter was clean last oil change 90 miles ago.

Can the experts please chip in here? Am I in real trouble? Is there any point in spending 6500USD (70 000 NOK) on new IMS/clutch/variocam pads in may, or is this engine dying?

I so f*cking sad right now. :(


Oil:
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02/olje1744108460.jpg

Metal:
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1744108537.jpg
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1744108567.jpg

We don't know the year of manufacture or the mileage, but in principle it doesn't matter.
Open the oil filter and cut the filter open or inspect it thoroughly. The filter housing holds exactly 0.4 litres of oil if the filter has become saturated. If the finding is also confirmed in the filter, I would not drive another metre and consider a revision.
Brown particles come from the rails of the camshaft chains.

Just my 5ct

Edit: I have to correct myself, I wouldn't drive another metre now or even start it. Do an oil analysis.

Hi and thanks for reply. As I said the filter changed 100km ago had no particles except plastic. But I will check again. I know about the brown plastic, the varicam pad job is already planned with workshop in may

An oil analazys costs 50% of the premium i will pay on my drivetrain insurance if the engine blows here in norway, and insurance will pay for new engine. No probably not going that route

I ended up giving a **************** and driving it to work. Sent pictures to mechanic/porsche specialist that I'm going to use for the ims/chain pads.

Right now i'm reconsidering my entire approach towards this ownership. Spending 6500 usd in preventive ims/variocam pads etc, while something else is lurking seems like waste of money. So does any preventive maintenance when insurance will cover everything above 1500usd will be covered by insurance when it blows. I might just drive the car until it explodes... :/
Car is a 2000 mod3l boxster S with 118000km (73k miles) on it

Good luck with that decision and keep us informed! Where do you/your insurance source a new engine?

I will. I dont know where they get it from. But we have a porsche classic center here, and i know of a rebuilder that works just on these engines.

I will hear back from the workshop, and talk with insurance. I might get the work to sort this before it blows covered.

I would highly recommend this, it is probably the cheapest solution ;-)

I just had an epiphany.. and it might be a embarrassing one. I suddenly came to think of, that when i took the oil plug out, the torx slipped and filings came of. I had to use a different torx to even get the plug out. Now there is a big chance that filings stuck to the plug went into the container below when the oil started flowing out.

There is i big chance, i think, this happened and that the metal is not from inside the engine at all. Makes sense since there was no metal at all in november.

I apologize for making a thread out of my own amateurness. I will however take your advice and do an oil and filter change, and inspect for debris. If there is none to be found, I belive i know what happened.

Now i feel like a moron. But its better to be a moron than to have metal debris in your engine!

But does the picture of the oil look somewhat normal?

Absolutely not. This shiny oil is not normal and definately points to a problem --if -- your catch can was clean befor you poured the oil in ;-)

Unfortunately, the container was clean. I found out the company doing oil analysis for my workplace (work on a ship) was not too expensive, and have ordered test containers.

But will the the results point towards what is failing/causing metal/metal contact? What can cause it? Can a failing ims cause this?

The fact that the oil is like this after 100km/2-3 hours of driving is pretty bad i guess. Cant remember it looking like this in november either.. weird.

Damage to the IMS would significantly increase the amount of Fe in the oil; in the case of damage of the main bearings (lead), tin, antimony, copper, cadmium and arsenic will be elevated.
Wait for the analysis and be sure to check the filter, as there will be an increased number of particles there *if* the damage is advanced.
Hopefully, everything together will then give a picture.
And replace your drain plug with the original one, these aluminium versions will not hold 50Nm with the genuine aluminium washer.

Thanks. I have googled and looked at pictures of different used oils, none of the pictures i looked at with "metal" in them looked like mine, they had more "glitter" looking residue. However, oil with moisture in it looked somewhat like mine. Can it be moisture? There is no goo in the oil lid or coolant, i do not suspect intermix. Is it possible that the winters cold and rainy days, combined with my multiple stop/starts and running it warm then shutting down while changing/filling coolant have led to condensation?

UOA will tell ;-)

It's important to remember that a ONE TIME oil analysis is just that "a one time snapshot". You'll need a number of tests over a period of time to understand what's going on in your engine. Typically, only a series of tests will demonstrate "wear trends".

Also, understand that every oil analysis will show a variety of metals, since engine parts ALL wear and that's exactly why we have oil filters in the first place....to collect and isolate that worn material.

So take multiple tests over many miles to gain the best knowledge of your engines internals and trends....NEVER just one.

I agree that on a typical engine, multiple samples over time is good to find a trend. I think with oil that looks like this:
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02/olje1744108460.jpg

A one time analysis can tell you a lot.

A "one time" analysis won't tell you what's "normal" wear and tear for YOUR engine. For example, a brand new engine's oil analysis could show a great variety of metals in the oil......but some of that stuff could be part of the manufacturing processes to make that engine or the typical "break in" wear.

IF you were to get an oil analysis of that FIRST oil you might think your engine is about to fail....lol.

Companies (often with fleets of vehicles) will perform regular oil analysis in order to determine the health of their engines........OVER MANY TESTS.....seldom do engines experience failure all of a sudden. It's more typical that they fail slowly. .But relying on ONE test is like pulling only ONE spark plug and trying to determine how all are burning based on one...........

But do as you wish........

There is some truth to what you are saying, but your kind of missing the point here. Me, Both engine engineers from work + the porsche mechanic + forum member 997_986 says something looks off on the pictures of the oil. I am very familiar with how this testing works as I am captain on a ship, and of course work closely with the chief engineer and engine dept, who does this regularly on our main generators/engines. However what we are looking at here is something different. The oil clearly looks like something is going on, and the analysis will be able to tell me if there is condensation/water in the oil, if there is glykol(bad news). That alone can tell me alot about why the oil looks like it does. Also, if some wear metal is sky high in a engine oil thats been run for less than 10 hours, that says a lot. I dont need a baseline for that. The company also writes a report based on what suspected values should be on average, if they have the engine in their database.

There is no doubt neither in me or anyone that i talked to that doing an oil analysis is the only reasonable way foreward. Indie Porsche workshop strongly urged me to do so also. It was pretty cheap as well 75 bucks per test, as they only work with companies and organizations as regulars. Ordered 5 test bottles.

Plan now is: tomorrow i will jack the car up again, and drain all oil out through a fine sieve, and see if I catch anything. Then i will take the oil filter out, cut it open and inspect thoroughly. Went out and got two new filters today after work. I did drive the car home from work. And it runs perfectly. Was it not for the oil i would not suspect a thing.

If there is metal particles in there (which i kind of doubt), well ****************..

1dl of the oil will be sent of to analysis. Will have the answer hopefully during next week.

Both engineers at work said it looked like some moisture in the oil, not metal. As marine engineers i guess they have seen a lot of this. Fingers crossed.

Cars stays in the garage for now until i know more.

Will update thread as situation progresses.

Thanks to everyone who has taken their time to reply so far!

While waiting for the UOA, you can do a blotter spot test with your oil. There are several templates on the internet with which you can compare the result.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdN-yWwJxtA

Wouldn't water or coolant in the oil cause the oil to look "foamy" or "milky"?
The posted picture looks somewhat translucent and really not bad at all....unless I'm missing something....which is possible (lol)

Blotter test is a good idea while waiting. While changing oil I always put a small sample fresh from the engine on a coffee filter. It will show any fine debris and separate fluids.

results from garage
 

So, i just finished up in the garage. Car was jacked up after running shortly to get oil lukewarm. Oil was drained through a sieve into a clean container. After this the oil filter housing was taken off, poured into another container, and filter changed. Old filter was then cut open and spread out.

Result, no metal fragments what so ever. None, Nada. Not even a single piece of glitter.
The oil filter and housing also seemed mostly clean, except for a few really small pieces of brown plastic, as expected. The variocam pads are worn and breaking down, I know this already and the job is planned.:rolleyes:

As for the look of the oil, it now has a lighter more milky look after i added Liqui Moly Ceratec, as this is offwhite. Looking closely at the oil now, it still looks a bit like before, but I suspect that there is moisture in the oil, as i could se a couple of "bubles" in the oil. Also, there was droplets on the oil filling cap. But there is no "mayo" of any kind. Analysis will tell. :rolleyes:

Poured the oil back in the engine. Analysis will decide what to do later.

Also, test container for oil sample came in the mail today. I will drive the samle and documentation to the lab tomorrow. I chose the fast 24h variant that costs double (around 100usd), which means I will have my report monday, maybe even tomorrow evening.

Washed the car and put her i storage for now.

Thanks for good tip on the blotter test. I will try that, even thou i will get results from test pretty soon.

Sieve i ran the oil through. Completely clean.
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1744305355.jpg

Oil filter
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1744305502.jpg

Oil sample
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1744305540.jpg

Back in storage
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1744305626.jpg

blotter test
 

I did the blotter test on coffepaper just now. :)


After about 40 seconds the oil is absorbed outwards. There is a bulb of oil in center and a "wet" circle outside. Seems pretty normal, right?:rolleyes:
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1744313690.jpg

After 10 minutes i checked back. All oil is absorbed already. I looked at the spot with a magnifying glass, and could not see any debris. So nothing worrying about this, right? Now i just wait for the oil report.
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1744313748.jpg

It would, when there is enough of it. But if you have slight condensation and it hasn't mixed into all the oil you can get these "layers". I've had a couple of outboard engines with both slight and massive water intrusion in the underwater housing/gear oil. with a lot of water its milkshake look if the engine has been run a lot and properly mixed. If its just slight, and the engine hasnt been run a lot, you can see seperation layers. Some clear oil, some more milky.

I did find moisture/droplets in the oil filler cap.

But the oil report will tell. :) i'm starting to be optimistic.

First of all, everything looks good imho, but I would use normal paper and not a coffee filter, the coarse structure may make it difficult to recognise the boundaries that form...

Looks good to me also. Suggest you drive the car since a hot engine will "boil off" any SLIGHT amount of condensation in the oil if given enough of a chance.

Obviously, that works with SLIGHT amounts of condensation. But if not "slight" I would investigate deeper. (any loss of coolant level?)

report
 

Delivered sample today at 11, they said i would get result by monday. But got the result before evening! GOOD NEWS! No abnormal wear metal levels! :D Reading results there is condensation in oil, but not very much. It does contain a bit too much gasoline thou. I cleaned the catch container with gas before i drained oil into it, but i dont know if that would make the oil thin.

Anyways I do not have a problem! But even thou test looks good, it does not explain why the oil looked weird. I will change the oil, based on looks. As my dad suggested after working on differrnt engines for a lifetime. I will keep an eye out on the value of aluminum in the oil thou, as it might be high for such a short runtime.

I want to thank everyone who has contributed with their time and effort to help me with tips and suggestions in this thread. Thank you.

The comment/report said the following (google translate from norwegian):

Comment
Missing information on specific oil in use, as there are several Mobil 1 3000 5W-40 variants.
The analysis (evaluated against SAE 5W-30 generally) indicates some gasoline present (low viscosity and low flash point). Requires that the sample be taken from operating hot oil (some gasoline will always be present, but this normally evaporates during operation).
The wear readings appear normal, no indication of abnormal wear detected. Water content
normal, no indication of possible coolant. The oil is somewhat thin, but this need not be
abnormal.

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1744388305.jpg
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1744388327.jpg

What kind of oil is it that contains so much boron and molybdenum? Very unusual. Additive? Otherwise the viscosities should be more or less the same as the fresh oil, or the remaining oil (which is 20% of the total filling quantity) was completely empty!?

It's mentioned in the first post and some of my replies. The reason i drained off some oil to begin with, was to add Liqui Moly Ceratec. The boron oxide and moly is part of the antifriction package in ceratec, that supposedly reduces chance of bore scoring, and reduces metal on metal friction.

The oil itself is a porsche A40 rated oil: mobil1 3000 x1, 5w-40.

The viscositie is somewhat compromised by fuel/gas in the oil according to the report.

Looking at the color of that stuff and given that you used two bottles of it, this could explain the look of the oil!
Edit: I read your first post, you said "you made room for Ceratec", I was not aware that it was already in the oil.

Sorry if this ended up unclear. To clear up:
In first post, there is NO ceratec in the oil. The picture of the oil that people reacted on was just pure used (10h) oil. The ceratec was then added, and car driven to/from work.

Then, the car was jacked up for a second time, and ALL oil was drained out through a sieve and filter cut open. This is when i took the sample (then with ceratec in it). Since there was no metal, oil was poured back in and driven some more. I have now decided to change oil regardless. As my dad said, i really just have the word of last owner that the oil has been changed annually. Car is new to me, this is my first oil change on this one. Before that, when car was in the US, interval was whatever porsche recommended at the time. So there might be all kinds of sludge/residue in there.