Originally Posted by Stl-986 (Post 636798)

I dont disagree at all.

On the plus side if it is fuel related he wont be on the hook for the bill.

I doubt it's fuel though.

If it were me I would have them to do a leak down test, followed by scoping the cylinders and then providing video of each cylinder.

Originally Posted by blue62 (Post 636794)

Well my point was with O compression on two cylinders they want to change plugs.
WTF.
And charge $882.00 to drain the fuel and change plugs. Robbery.

Originally Posted by Stl-986 (Post 636792)

They could take a test sample all day long but that still wont tell them if there is water (generally speaking). they need to drain all of the tank and then the water will go to the top and fuel to the bottom.

You dont have to remove the headers for plugs, FSM doesn't even say to do that. Keep in mind he has it at the dealer so figure 4 hours labor and at least $30/plug. Little high, but I have seen dealers charging $185/hour lately.

Originally Posted by Stl-986 (Post 636798)

I dont disagree at all.

On the plus side if it is fuel related he wont be on the hook for the bill.

I doubt it's fuel though.

If it were me I would have them to do a leak down test, followed by scoping the cylinders and then providing video of each cylinder.

Originally Posted by ecp (Post 636816)

i’m 21, so they might just assume i’m a moron..... they said those plugs are fouled already and i said i know because i saw them when pulling them for a compression test. i had ran the car for maybe a minute while checking the wiring after installing them. He basically explained that they need to do their own diagnostic of the car, even though i did mine.

I daily drove a 72 karmann ghia for 3 years before i got this car. I know this is a totally different animal but i do know my way around a car.

Originally Posted by blue62 (Post 636836)

Yes I think you do very well for a young fella.
I never take a car to a shop unless it is a recall situation.
So some of the thing shops do and the price they charge seems crazy to me.
I understand that they want to do there own diagnostics of the car.
But in the end it is still about the bottom line.
I also understand that they have to make a profit to stay in business.
But to me $822.00 to drain the tank and change plugs is nuts.

The real issue is your engine.
You say the plugs were fouled when you pulled them to do the compression check.
How were they fouled????
wet oil? black carbon? black carbon with sort of a powdery look ??
Grayish with sort of a powdery ash look???
Just trying to get a feel for what happened based on any info you have;)

Originally Posted by ecp (Post 636838)

I’ve been burned by shops twice, and those were the last time i took my cars to anyone.

I installed a set of e3s out of curiosity in january and kind of forgot about it because the car ran well, and then re installed the lightly used berus that had maybe 2k miles on them last weekend. the e3s looked strange when i pulled them and i’ll post a photo if i can figure it out. i tried spraying sea foam into bank one from the intake boot (the one that connects the tb plenum to the runner with the hole for the valve) but never ran the engine enough to get it all through the system. I was trying to determine if it was a fuel issue by seeing if cylinders started firing when i sprayed it in (they didn’t)

But they looked wet, smelled a little oily, and a little like fuel and the tips were dark. looked a little like carbon to me but that could have been the sea foam loosening up deposits from the head and piston.

When i installed the berus they looked perfectly grey/tan and i’ll also attach photos if i can figure it out

Originally Posted by blue62 (Post 636846)

So just spit balling here.
I would expect the plugs to be wet because of the Sea foam.
I would expect them to smell a little like fuel because the fuel/air mixture was not burning due to no compression.

Smelled a little oily hmmm and looked a little like carbon.!!!!
I would expect a little carbon if those Cylinders were getting a little oil in the fuel/air mixture when the engine was running.
carbon=burned oil.

Was your exhaust ever blueish or whitish or not looking right???

Originally Posted by ecp (Post 636856)

Only when the aos failed. And then the replacement failed two months later. Nothing visual out of the exhaust, and i would have seen it because it’s a “race” exhaust.
There’s always a film of oil in the intake from the AOS. it wasn’t like that when i bought the car (it was bone dry inside), but i could never quite figure out why it never went back to having zero visual oil in the intake after replacement. maybe just an inferior part to the original i suppose, but good enough to pass.

Originally Posted by blue62 (Post 636857)

My intake always has a little oil as well.
I get the bit of blue exhaust on startup but just for the first few seconds.
My plugs always look like they should though.

keep us posted;)

Originally Posted by ecp (Post 636971)

They found nothing in the gas tank. Looks like it’s just a really bad coincidence. they want $500 to do a bore scope and i just don’t know if it’s worth it at this point. Don’t know what to do :(

Originally Posted by blue62 (Post 636977)

You could buy a scope and do that yourself for around 20% of that cost or maybe less.;)

Originally Posted by Stl-986 (Post 636981)

I'm thinking the scope is going to help you figure out the problem. I haven't seen these happen with these cars, but anything is possible.

With my jetski's if the wrong plug is used or it is running too rich the piston's are known for getting holes burned out on the top of the piston, which in turn obviously causes no compression. On 2 cycle ski's this is always cause of not running the right mixture. Doesn't apply 100% to a car obviously but I think it COULD be possible to happen depending on the gas quality. Scope will be pretty obvious.

There are some very cheap cameras you can get on amazon that hook up to your phone, just for the future. Think I got one for around $15. Quality isn't great, but it does it's job.

Originally Posted by ecp (Post 636988)

They said one valve is stuck open. they said it probably needs new head and cams but maybe it’s just a busted valve spring? or a busted lifter. or a busted cam. maybe it’s time to get my hands dirty again

Originally Posted by blue62 (Post 636998)

Yep your not really going to know what happened until you start to get some visual feedback on it.

I was trying to think of what would cause two cyl. to loose all compression yet allow the engine to turn over and start.
Hole in both pistons very unlikely.
I thought maybe a busted cam with valves stuck open.
But you would think a piston would hit a valve if it was stuck open.
Then all kinds of things can happen.
So I am curious as to what happened.

Originally Posted by ecp (Post 637006)

They said the pistons looked good. hoping for busted valve spring or a stuck lifter but i’ve already got a used head and cams priced out. just gotta get the car back and tear into it on a weekend

Originally Posted by Stl-986 (Post 637308)

did you have plastic bits in the oil pan?

Leak down test would have helped before as that will show a valve issue usually.

snap some pictures of the head, maybe it will be obvious if it's a spring.

You did lock the cams right? Both of them?

Originally Posted by ecp (Post 637343)

i pulled the exhaust cam, a definitive broken valve spring broken on cylinder two, need to pull the intake cam to look at the intake springs on cylinder two or one.

Do you guys think i need to pull the head? i’d definitely like to avoid that if i could. I’ll probably end up replacing all the valve springs if two simultaneously broke to be safe.

also any tips on reassembling? i marked the chain and sprocket with a marker and have the lock tool from my Ims kit. it’s a variocam 3 chain motor

Originally Posted by blue62 (Post 637361)

These are interference engines.

If you have broken valve springs then there is a very good chance that the piston has contacted those valves.
So the valve stems on those valves could be bent or there could be damage to the valve guides, and or damage to the valve seats.

The only way you are going to know if there is damage is to remove the head and have it checked out by a good machine shop.

You may have dodged a bullet and can save that engine.
Pull the head and have a automotive machine shop examine the head and check specs.
That is the prudent thing to do.

Originally Posted by ecp (Post 637363)

I did another borescope (at home). no contact with the piston, no seat damage. i was able to wiggle it around just enough to get a good look at the seat and it looked good.

Honestly at 124k miles, i’d rather start saving for a new or upgraded motor. I thought about pulling the head, but the borescope answered questions i had. The spring broke in such a way that it wouldn’t return fully, but it wouldn’t go in far enough to hit anything either. No damage to any piston.

I think that cylinder one was “dead” because the ecu went into some kind of mode or just couldn’t compensate for the one cylinder with zero compression.

I’m trying to decide now if i should replace all 24 springs, just the springs on bank one, or just the one spring. they look okay, but if one broke, others might soon follow. replacing all the springs and getting it back on the road is worth it to me. Any thoughts on that or good while you’re in there’s are welcome

I do love this car so spending the money for a new engine down the road doesn’t bother me. i just don’t have that kind of cash right now:D

Originally Posted by Stl-986 (Post 637369)

Usually there is a reason why it broke. I wouldn't do them all right now if it were me, I would just do bank 1.

Now, with that said....the plastic you have been getting in your oil and that you have noticed....is a problem. Should have addressed that when you saw it the 1st time. I suspect this was the 1st problem and then started to get worse. Shouldn't cause a broken spring, but, if there is something in in the oil that shouldn't be there, it is only a matter of time before that plastic gets somewhere that will cause bigger issues.

Originally Posted by blue62 (Post 637373)

You can do what ever you like it's your car.:D
I gave you my opinion and I stand by it.;)
Keep us posted.

Originally Posted by ike84 (Post 637388)

Not to derail this victory (good job finding the broken spring!) But what is going on with cylinder 1? There's no "limp mode" that will cause total loss of compression.

You said the dealer did a leak down test - what did they find on cylinder 1?

If you have no compression in cylinder 1 and a leak down supports that finding, I think you still have more trouble ahead.

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Originally Posted by ecp (Post 637463)

I did my own sort of test. i modified my compression test hose so it can put air into the cylinders, and then when i unplugged the compressor line, i’d feel for air coming back out of the hose that’s screwed into the head. cylinders two and three had good pressure when i undid the line, but cylinder one had nothing. keep in mind all valves are closed, but cylinder one is at TDC.



My question is:

Is the reason that i felt no air coming back out of cylinder one because there’s no space for it to go (TDC, very small space vs the other two pistons which are further inward etc)

or because there’s also a problem with cylinder one and the broken valve spring on cyl two isn’t all that went wrong.

Cylinder one was not firing, i’d like to think it’s just the ecu not being able to compensate for cylinder two which had zero compression, but this is having me re think my approach. I don’t want to pull the head, but if i have to, i have to.



i only put in about 25 psi. Should i try closer to 100 like what people do when they perform leakdown tests?

Originally Posted by ike84 (Post 637466)

So you pressurized the cylinders (with the head cover off I'm assuming?) And cyls 2-3 returned pressure when the supply line was vented but cyl 1 returned nothing?

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Originally Posted by ecp (Post 637467)

yup i have the head cover off, and removed the broken spring. was just trying to get my parts list together and wanted to make sure i didn’t need to add a bunch of things to it. Cyl one returned very little after doing the test again with more pressure put into it. I think it’s due to the fact that there’s a much smaller space for air to go since the piston is at tdc. starting at zero and firing up the compressor it builds pressure nearly as quickly as when an air tool is attached to the line.

there’s a slight hiss coming from back near the crankshaft area which i assume is just air seeping past the rings. it did it on all cylinders



after putting more pressure in and confirming air returned on cylinder one numerous times i think it’s worth a shot putting new springs in and trying to fire it up, and maybe it was just an ecu error causing cylinder one to not fire. I could be wrong, but i could be right. Only one way to find out.



The fact that the dealership only mentioned a valve being stuck open on one cylinder also leaves me to believe that they didn’t really find any other issues, but i’m gonna give them a call tomorrow and ask just to double check.

Originally Posted by ike84 (Post 637468)

At tdc, both intake and exhaust valves should be closed. Hence, whatever pressure you put in should stay there. Even in a small space, 25psi is a lot of air. If you aren't getting it back there is a problem. You are effectively doing a poor man's leak down test, but I don't think you're gonna get any kind of good diagnostic data with the way you're doing it. You said the dealership did a leak down - what did it show?

The bottom line here is that if a cylinder won't pressurize, or won't hold pressure, you have a serious problem.

One caveat there - we have low pressure piston rings. So, in the absence of a crank case vacuum, expect some leak down. Not complete loss though.



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