IMS - First Time Buyer Question
 

Hi guys. I promise I am not rushing to asking the question without having done some research but I can't find the exact answer I'm looking for.

I am about to bite the bullet on buying my first Porsche. 986 Boxster S - 2003 - 110,000 miles but well cared for and full service history etc.
I have enquired about the IMS and was told that the clutch was replaced about 18 months ago and at the time the IMS was inspected and was fine so they didn't replace.

My question is, is that enough? Is it the bearings themselves that were faulty and I can be confident that after 110,000 miles when the bearing was checked and found to be OK that I can relax? If it was faulty or going to explode would it have shown signs by now?

Personally I would have insisted on replacing it when the clutch was being done, given the potential for damage and the fact that - well it was just there, change it.
But that ship has sailed.

So, I guess my question is, the cars that this affected (I think I read 8% in a few places) is that 8% as a result of the bearing itself, driving style, too far between oil changes etc etc. The cars that haven't been affected, when can you consider it safe and that it won't be a problem in that car.
Can I be safe in the knowledge that the bearing was found to be OK 18 months ago and its not something I need to be concerned about?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

For what it is worth, I went through the same process this past Fall. I passed on several Boxsters I was really interested in and perhaps were better deals. I read too much about IMS failures! Of course my luck in life has never been wonderful either. In the end, I settled on a 2000 S that the owner recently had the rear seal replaced and the LN solution installed. Gave me some peace of mind, but I settled on a Boxster with an auto vs manual which I am having a hard time adjusting too. This was the only Boxster that I could find in my area of search that had the IMS issue addressed. If I had it to do over, I would still be looking, but I would not buy any older Porsche in which the IMS issue had not been addressed. Look at recent forum posts!

Thanks for your reply. I agree that for peace of mind I would much preferred to have heard that it was replaced but I'm wondering is the fact that it was inspected and found to be OK only 18months ago, can I consider that "addressed"? Basically after 110,000 miles, the original IMS bearing is still OK.
I don't want to lose out on what is a lovely example of this car from being overly concerned about an issue that affected 8% of vehicles. All signs are that the one I'm looking at is one of the other 92% that wasn't affected - am I being too optimistic? :-)
I live in Ireland, and there aren't too many of these cars in the country. So I don't have a whole lot to chose from.

Not sure how they can "inspect" the IMS bearing without removing it, and once it has been pulled it's junk. Unless they meant they cut open the oil filter and didn't find anything in there.

For what it's worth, I have 120,000 miles on my '04 2.7 and the filter was clean on the last oil change - another coming up in May.

Just add $3,000.....
 

.....to the price of the car and have it changed.

Just know that your Boxster will cost $3,000 more than the asking price. Negotiate a lower purchase price due to your well founded research and explain that to the seller.

Good luck.

Thanks again for reply. When I was told they checked it I presumed they could physically see it and check it for play when they were replacing clutch.
Would this not be the case?

Yes, if I found a car that I liked and the IMSB wasn't already done, I'd buy the car and have the IMSB replaced. My '04 has about 47,000 miles and I plan to have it done later this year with the LN IMS Solution.

Does it need to be a $3,000? No. There are lots of options available to replace the bearing at varying costs. I think that in Ireland you may have a hard time finding a shop that has experience with the IMS Solution, but I think that the EPS bearing is a fairly common fix there.

No. You can't see it unless it's removed.
You have more reading to do. ;)

I am old...
 

....and in my time, no repair ever came in on budget.

I always add a bit to the figure.

YMMV.

:cheers:

The demise of the IMS has been greatly exaggerated.

This is just my opinion, of course, but because I'm a DIY-er, I do a lot of reading, and I research everything I read. Sure, there are lots of "experts" who'll tell you one thing or another (for instance; this week we've heard on this very forum, from someone who has an "expert Porsche Technician" who says you can't track a Boxster without losing the motor. This is demonstrably false) These "Experts" come with varying degrees of experience and qualifications, and you need to remember that, when assigning a value to their opinions. You also need to understand the agendas which sometimes lie behind their statements. DO NOT DISCOUNT THE AGENDA of pride; Those who have spent a LOT of money for an IMS Solution to gain "peace of mind" are sometimes (not always) threatened by those who think that might be a little overboard, or even foolish, on a car that isn't worth $10k in resale.

I replaced my IMS bearing when I did the clutch. I honestly wish I hadn't. with 147k miles on mine, it was still PERFECT. But as another member commented: once removed, it's junk. But I took out a KNOWN-TO-BE-GOOD bearing and replaced with a giant question-mark. (Yes, there are some instances where the replaced IMS, and even the "solution" have failed)

MY daughter bought an '08 Subaru Legacy last year, with 80k miles. After 9 months of driving, she lost a head-gasket and overheated. The damage was catastrophic to the motor: chunked a cylinder. She put a USED motor in it, to the tune of $6k. Yup: a USED motor couldn't be had for less than $3500. Turns-out this is incredibly common on the NJ25 motor. My point? ALL USED CARS HAVE A CERTAIN RISK OF FAILURE. And most used cars have COMMON failures.

Ultimately, you need to decide what the car is for? IS this for FUN? Then forget about the IMS and go have fun. Elsewhere on this forum is the GREAT advice: Drive More, Worry Less".
Is this car for INVESTMENT? then you picked the wrong car. HARD Pass on it. The Boxster is not an investment car.
If the car has some sort of sentimental value to you, or represents a "bucket-list", or whatever, and you plan to keep it forever, and pass-on to posterity, then YES, do the IMSB. This is the only instance in which I think it makes sense.

Again: just my opinion, based on my own experience and all the reading / investigation / research that I've done.

I have never heard of a confirmed IMS Solution failing...…………….

Thanks for taking the time. I really appreciate it. Kinda thinking along the same lines as well, but I don't want to be foolish either.
Way I look at it is if the failure rate is around 10% - that means that I have a 90% chance of everything being OK :-) I'll take those odds.
Been doing a lot of research on this and I have come across a few comforting points of view that express much the same as you - And with what I am paying for the car I am finding it hard to justify going and spending almost a 1/4 of what its costing me to buy it just to do this one upgrade, that might not even be needed.
Its not my daily runner, so if it went south I wouldn't suffer any down time. And then I could just try and source a second hand engine or donor car, which would cost more but I'd have a fair chunk of change to put towards it from what I saved by not getting the upgrade done.

Having read a lot of forums and posts at this point one thing starts to come across strong - I don't remember one post where anyone that had it changed said that it actually needed changing - in fact many make the point that the original was "Pristine" - but now they had peace of mind.
And there also a few youtube vids of guys that had them replaced and they still failed as they weren't fitted right or whatever. So you take a risk either way! And as I'm in Ireland I'd doubt many mechanics here have much experience doing this type of upgrade, the roads aren't flooded with Porsche's due to astronomical road tax for big engines, so I'd be nervous that it's been done right.
I'm also not sure if any of the solutions offer a lifetime guarantee for their upgrade.

I liked this guys comments I read somewhere else:
"So far, of everyone posting in this thread that has done the replacement (of whatever version) all have said their bearings were “pristine”. Mileage doesn’t seem to matter. I’ll do mine when I do my clutch. Currently, everything is fine and it is hard to justify spending the $$$ up front when to do the whole thing right should be IMS, Clutch, Flywheel, RMS. Otherwise it is almost pointless to take the trans out to just do one, or a lessor combo at the end of the day. I’m not big on replacing parts that don’t need it. I suppose I’m playing the odds, but they are stacked WAY in my favor. If my engine goes boom, then it gives me an excuse to do a 3.6! :-) "

I think I'll go with that. Drive it on, don't worry about, if it happens it happens - any car can have any problem at anytime. I'll keep an eye on oil filter when its being changed and whenever the clutch needs doing I'd consider one of the upgrade options at that point.


For anyone else interested - this guy seems to do a decent explanation of why they fail, although he is promoting one of the fix options at the end of the vid. But even he admitted that when he removed his to do the upgrade, his was pristine also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUq2DFpeKw

I came across a few comments of replaced ones failing and this video also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_IeP_iShxA

If it were me, I'd budget the cost of replacing the IMS bearing, just for peace of mind. I paid a paltry amount for my 2002 2.7 with high miles (146K at the time). I had no service history with the car, and I ended up worrying about it quite a bit after reading all the horror stories about IMS failures.

When the clutch started slipping, I went ahead and had the bearing replaced (LN) at the same time, and was amazed at how much less stressed I am about driving it now.

BTW, my original bearing was also in perfect shape, but the grease was almost completely gone; there was just a slight brown residue left on the balls and races. So it was a good decision on my part, it was just a matter of time before it failed.

Once you replace the bearing, you can drive more and worry less. <- I've used that twice in less than a week! :dance:

Hi Alan,

It sounds like a nice car but you really should consider a pre-purchase inspection (PPI) by a qualified Porsche specialist. The car is old enough that there could be plenty of other things that may need attention and blow your wallet and budget if you only find out after you buy it and weren't planning for it. I agree that there is no way to inspect an IMSB and call it good.

My own car is a 2003 S that I purchased new. It now has 77,600 miles on it and I just took it home from the shop with a rebuilt engine 2 days ago. I had the original IMSB replaced with a ceramic unit as a proactive measure a few years ago when the car had 42,000 miles. I still have the original IMSB, the seals are intact and it still drips engine oil into the ziplock bag it sits in on my workbench. I don't know if the original IMSB would have failed or not. I can feel a little bit of play in the bearing but I don't know if that is normal or not. The ceramic bearing I had my shop install failed last July. No one can say why it happened, but it did. A timing chain paddle on the back of my engine also broke, who know what happened first. The interior of my oil pump housing was also gouged and had to be replaced. But other than those items, there was no other significant damage and my engine was rebuildable. There aren't a lot of failures of the ceramic IMSB upgrades, but it can happen. The 2003 and 2004 model years have a single row bearing which, supposedly and according the Eisen Class Action Settlement, have the highest failure rate, 8% I think. If the engine fails, it is a 3 chain engine as opposed to 2002 and earlier which are 5 chain engines, so there are less of them around to purchase a good used one. And if yours fails, it could be catastrophic leaving you with an engine that isn't rebuildable. In any event, the cost of a rebuild will likely be a lot more than the fair market value of the car. If you purchase the car and decide to replace the IMSB, I would recommend the IMS Solution, that is what I went with in my rebuild. And the IMSB isn't the only thing that can happen, which is why you should look into a PPI as a final step on the car you are ready to purchase.

They are great cars and I'm sure you'll enjoy it if you purchase it. There is a lot of knowledge here and if you can and like to do things yourself, there are plenty of things you can do yourself from simple to more difficult. I don't want to scare you away, just want to share my experience so you can go in with your eyes wide open.

You need to decide your comfort level with the IMSB and whether or not you want to upgrade it.

I'm sure LN would agree with you...

in my opinion it's a cost/benefit analysis.
what's the cost/benefit of having it replaced? it may certainly be worth your money to have the work done again.

OTOH, some will say a high mileage car is less likely to fail than a low mile car.

"confirmed" being the qualifier, I absolutely agree. There are the occasional, anecdotal "stories", but they are just that. I weight them as such. They are just as likely driven by their own agendas; whatever they may be.

But hey, if somebody said it once on the internet, then it's true, right? :-)

I've owned a lot of used cars in my lifetime, and I've never had one that wasn't prone to some sort of common-failure. Some types of failure are worse than others. Some with greater frequency than others.

If you want a used car with the lowest likelihood of common catastrophic failure, look at a Mercedes. Your dollar goes much further there than with any other mfr, in my experience.

We have seen IMS Solution equipped engines that spun bearings, and one that even broke the crank, and the Solution survived every time. A couple of them even reused the IMS Solution in their new engines, something that no other retrofit can do.

There have been multiple high mileage IMS failures, mileage is not an exemption from the risk. We had a customer lose his factory IMS at over 150K miles.

Personally, I really don't care what LN says, I care what my customer's performance history tells me.

I replaced my IMS bearing when I did the clutch. I honestly wish I hadn't. with 147k miles on mine, it was still PERFECT. But as another member commented: once removed, it's junk. But I took out a KNOWN-TO-BE-GOOD bearing and replaced with a giant question-mark. (Yes, there are some instances where the replaced IMS, and even the "solution" have failed)

What did you replace it for? Just curios..

So in this video,
www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3kyGJzlikg
is this not a valid check?
I'm not trying to be smart, I just genuinely don't know if this is a legitimate way of checking it for integrity.

I succumbed to the paranoia. haha.
Seriously: I'm sitting there looking at the IMS bearing and the Rear Main Seal. I had ordered parts for both, because everything says "do them while you're in there", which of course makes sense, right?
So I'm sitting there looking at them. No reason to suspect either have any problems whatsoever.... but BOTH are destroyed by pulling to inspect. So I did it.... and now I worry about it sometimes while I'm out driving. I worry more now than I did BEFORE I replaced it, without a doubt.

:(

Whatev'..... sometimes I drink the cool-aid too.

I wonder why the IMS Guardian never took off? That would seem like a decent middle ground. Give you some peace of mind but without having to do any immediate expensive upgrade. Can't find one for sale anywhere.

I replaced my IMS, in my 03s, and the seals were intact. I pulled a seal and it was full of old oil, no grease was left. The bearing seemed fine but for how long. Just replace and enjoy. There are many things that can go wrong with these engines, and if you worry about it, you shouldn't own one.

Haha, it`s crazy, right? The more you read this stuff the more anxious you get for no reason.. Sorry, sometimes I forget to speak English: the question I wanted to ask was what you replaced the old bearing with?

None of the bearings either shown or discussed were the IMS Solution. The one if the video was one of the roller bearing replacements that some people think are so great. The video does however show why replacing a failed or failing IMS bearing in an engine full of metal is a bad idea.

There were some issues with the durability of the IMS Guardian, but I think that the main reason that it didn't take off is that by the time it triggers, the engine will need to be torn down for a rebuild anyway. It is too late to just replace the bearing.

Info is scattered across many threads, but here's some discussion: http://986forum.com/forums/performance-technical-chat/46572-does-ims-guardian-work.html

Thank you to everyone for taking time to reply and it’s nice to get a few different view points.
There are 2 options I can find online - both require me bringing the car to England ( which adds to the cost massively) but I’ll ring a couple of places here in Ireland & see what they offer. Their websites say they are Porche Specialists but no mention of IMS upgrade by any of them.
https://www.kenplantautotech.ie/
https://www.specialistcarsireland.ie/
Optimum Performance & Handling | Porsche Independent Specialists
Porsche Car Sales, Prestige Car Sales, North Dublin

In England I see
IMS Bearing Replacement | Revolution Porsche of Yorkshire
and
https://rpmtechnik.co.uk/servicing/ims-bearing-upgrade/

I think the first one, Revolution, is the upgrade that most would recommend?

I would usually be happy enough to drive on if it was something that could fail, and would then require a repair. But there is no repairing here - full new engine, which may as well mean a new car.
But it’s not the rate of failure, which in all honesty I think is blown out of proportion due to the nature of how the internet works ( I mean if every Porsche owner that never upgraded & never had a problem came online it might give a different perspective) BUT the consequences of a failed bearing are not in dispute and it’s one thing everyone can agree on.
I am surprised that when looking around in the aftermarket car sales websites that there aren’t more Porches for sale as “parts only” or “needs new engine” - I mean if this was a major issue you would expect to see plenty of cars that had the failing, are not worth fixing & so go on sale for their other valuable parts.
And of the 30+ running and good condition cars I viewed only 2 said they had the IMS done. 2!! If others had it done it would surely be a selling point. So u have to reasonably presume they haven’t had it done and all these years later they are still running fine. And so many comments from ones that have had it done & their original bearing was pristine - so while LN etc will say how many units they have sold, that doesn’t mean that all those thousands of units were actually needed.

But, I keep coming back to the consequences of a failure & the lack of forewarning.

I am torn, but my gut is telling me to get it done. I will eventually take it to France & maybe later Italy for a weeks driving holiday with my wife and that would not be a good place for something like this to go wrong.
I’ll try and negotiate a bit more discount on the car to get me over the line, and I guess if I ever do come to reselling it, it would be a selling point in its favour.
I’ve had cars in the past that have required expensive enough repairs, I remember a Toyota Aristo with a stupid oil leak that ended up running into €800, but I wasn’t about to get rid of car over €800.
I guess if I had the Boxster for a year & something needed doing at a cost of €800 or a €1000 I wouldn’t give it to much thought, just get it done. Not going to give up the car for something like that, unless it was expense like that on an ongoing basis - but what I’m reading is they are pretty reliable & not crazy expensive to keep running.
So if the IMS failure was not engine ending, but still €1000 to repair if it broke, would I buy the car & drive on in the knowledge that it might fail & cost me €1000+ to fix? Yes, yes I would.
So why not spend the money upfront as a preventative step? If I would be willing to spend that money to have it repaired, why not be willing to spend it to stop it from happening in the first place.
It’s a bit like the flu jab or other jabs before u go to exotic places on holiday - pay €100 now to prevent yourself getting ill on holiday & spending hundreds on medical bills & time off work in recovery OR spend €100 now and avoid it in the first place.
It’s effectively an insurance policy. All the years paying insurance on health & car & house & I have never once made a claim. And u know what would happen the first time I didn’t insure something? Bang!!

So all in all I will most likely get it done if the sale goes ahead.
Just need to figure out if I can get it done in Ireland or need to go to UK.

I posted this in another thread a couple of weeks ago.

"Just to throw a wrench into the mix, I owned 2 LN IMS Guardians. Not only did both leak (yes they were torqued to 19 ft/lbs per instructions) but both failed where the electrical wires enter the Guardian. Without proper stress relief they simply worked their way into fraying and becoming useless. I thought the first fail was a freak thing and ordered a replacement but it too leaked and failed in the exact same way. Neither lasted a full driving season.These units are a great idea but poor execution doomed them. So I'm 2 for 2 with LN drain plugs/Guardians. So far my LN IMS bearing is fine, I hope, after putting ~15,000 miles on it."

BTW, my wife and I spent 3 weeks in your beautiful country last May. We loved it. You should have great miles and smiles in your Boxster on those amazing back roads!

Here's the deal...you're never going to be 'safe.' 986 engines will eventually wear out. Replacing the IMS bearing is one way to avoid a premature, catastrophic engine failure

The math is simple. Either pay to replace the IMSB as a preventative measure to avoid one failure mode or pay $3000+ (DIY) to $6000+ (shop swaps engine) to recover from a catastrophic engine failure.

Bottom line is this. One day you'll pay for a major engine rebuild, an engine replacement, or preventative repairs. It just a matter of which and when that should drive your planning.

Is the $6,000 "shop swap" a used engine or a fresh rebuild with an upgraded IMSB?

$6K would be a used engine with a shop doing the engine swap. A 2.5L used engine swap by a shop can be done for $4,500 (had this done last year for the 5th time).

A professionally rebuilt S engine is $8K-$10K for the engine alone.