Desnorkel vs Cold Air Intake

[BRAN]

uhm...how about desnorkel + race filter (BMC or K&N)?
A little bit more power and way more intake sound.
That way you won't have all the hassle with the cone cold air intakes, because it is all easy fit plug'n'play.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by BRAN

uhm...how about desnorkel + race filter (BMC or K&N)?
A little bit more power and way more intake sound.
That way you won't have all the hassle with the cone cold air intakes, because it is all easy fit plug'n'play.

I would wager that removing the factory cold air intake and replacing it with a warm/hot intake would result in a loss of HP on a dyno.................

[78F350]

Just rip all that stuff out and put a K&N in there. The engineers at Porsche don't know how to make a car sound good. Right?
...or is there physics involved? I read about this stuff once and had a basic understanding, maybe you can too.
Pressure waves, harmonics, volume, length, clean flow vs disturbed, ... Way too much engineering involved for me to think I could make it better with a little sheet metal, some PVC, and a generic filter system.
Simple:
https://itstillruns.com/air-intake-resonator-do-12156112.html
For the engineers:
FLUID DYNAMIC STUDY OF INTAKE MANIFOLDS OF INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES IN PRESENCE OF ACOUSTIC RESONATORS

[maytag]

Originally Posted by 78F350

Just rip all that stuff out and put a K&N in there. The engineers at Porsche don't know how to make a car sound good. Right?
...or is there physics involved? I read about this stuff once and had a basic understanding, maybe you can too.
Pressure waves, harmonics, volume, length, clean flow vs disturbed, ... Way too much engineering involved for me to think I could make it better with a little sheet metal, some PVC, and a generic filter system.
Simple:
https://itstillruns.com/air-intake-resonator-do-12156112.html
For the engineers:
FLUID DYNAMIC STUDY OF INTAKE MANIFOLDS OF INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES IN PRESENCE OF ACOUSTIC RESONATORS

Wow.... what an incredibly snide and condescending response. But I'll play along.
To suggest that somehow the engineers at Porsche read my mind and designed this system to meet MY specific needs or desires is preposterous. I'm sure the amount of noise I'm looking for would be considered unacceptable by many, or most, and CERTAINLY by most DOT standards. And if you think that the system installed by Porsche can't be improved upon, you're sorely mistaken.
As to the physics: while this is my first Porsche, I've built plenty PLENTY race motors, both superbike, muscle car and even a little fiat 1.8L that'd wind to almost 9k: the way "the physics" say something should work is not always the way it works, because your basic calculations don't take into consideration all of the other variables. So you go ahead and sit on your unmodified car (because Porsche clearly optimized everything on this car, so why would you change ANYTHING, and for that matter why would Porsche ever build another car if they got it right this time?) While you convince yourself that the wave modulation of the hyfendufenator serves to counter the harmonics of the filter bearings.....
Me? I'ma go ahead and tear out all KINDS of useless crap that Porsche designed and installed because they were required to compromise, like every other automotive engineer and manufacturer.

How'd I do? Did I accurately match the tone of your post? ;-)

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[78F350]

Originally Posted by maytag

Wow.... what an incredibly snide and condescending response. But I'll play along. ...
How'd I do? Did I accurately match the tone of your post? ;-)

Yes and no. I have never made a 1.8 Fiat engine that could wind to 9k nor do I aspire to. From your original post it seemed that you may not have known much about the design of the intake. To me, making significant changes to the intake, just to make a better sound without consideration to the purpose of the design could be a mistake. I wanted to make it clear that there is a purpose for the "weird warty thing" you didn't know about - pass on some of what I have learned.



In answer to your original question:

... Can anyone comment? I'm interested only in the sound, for now.

My snide response for the day - How about an Android app and some good speakers?

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a21724/how-to-make-your-prius-sound-like-it-has-a-v-8-33857/

[BRAN]

Originally Posted by 78F350

...
My snide response for the day - How about an Android app and some good speakers?
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a21724/how-to-make-your-prius-sound-like-it-has-a-v-8-33857/

Hahaha...I just bought the app for iOS 11, damn it is not working (screen freeze), not sure if it is a scam
But yeah, it would be a helluva fun to run my Boxster, with a Prius, Fiat Cinquecento or VW 1300 Sound. Gotta get in contact with the dev. Thanks for the great find.

[maytag]

y'al are awesome. Thanks for all the replies. ALL of them!
So here's where I should clarify some things:
It's not that I'm not interested in power... I am. This is why I'm interested in any REAL power losses that have been experienced. JFP's reasoning is very sound, but the practical application of theory is not always noticeable. That's why I was looking for something quantifiable, or even an "I installed xyz and felt a noticeable seat-of-the-pants drop...." sort of anecdotal evidence.

What I'm finding is that y'all don't seem to trust the ability of the aftermarket setups to insulate / isolate the warm air from the intake. It makes sense, of course. Though I have a setup like it on another vehicle which is actually QUITE effective, and seals tightly against the hood. But that's a front-engine V8.... very differnt situation. If the setup can't keep warm air out of the intake, then it's a step backwards. If it can't insulate the engine sound from the intake sound, then it's even a step backwards in sound, (for my tastes).

But maybe the hyperbole can that JFP described in his post is a place I can start, as well as replacing the filter with a less-restrictive one.

I am not a newcomer to making power, or modifying vehicles, or racing them. I Am a newb when it comes to Porsches, and mid-engine cars in general. So I'm approaching this as being interested in learning what y'all know. No sense reinventing a wheel that's already going. That's much better than me coming in and acting like I know everything, right? BUT: I'd like to understand it and weigh it against the knowledge I've already got under my belt. I'm not a guy who'll ever just buy and install a product (or worse yet: leave one intact) just because somebody else says I should. That'll ALWAYS be followed-up with a "WHY?"

And to be clear: I"m a smart-ass at heart. I like it when someone sends me a reply like the on below by cb350 (or whatever) because I can put on my smart-ass hat, and not feel bad. :-) I also assume others are not mean.... so no harm where none's taken, right?

[mikefocke]

So lets see if I got this right.

You are going to make some mods. And you don't think that Porsche engineers with multiple tries at getting it right and with a dyno at their disposal had a chance at getting better results out of their multiple tries than your single "I know better" mods?

It is your car and I wouldn't begin to tell you how your car should sound. I can, however, tell you that our ears are only designed for so many vibrations at any given set of amplitudes and your future hearing aids will probably cost you as much as all of the mods you are planning.

Be sure and dyno the before and after. Some who have mod'ed hundreds of M906 engines have.

[The Radium King]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

So lets see if I got this right.

You are going to make some mods. And you don't think that Porsche engineers with multiple tries at getting it right and with a dyno at their disposal had a chance at getting better results out of their multiple tries than your single "I know better" mods?

porsche engineers designed the ims yes? i always think of that when i get the "porsche knows better' stuff used as an argument.

[dlud]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

porsche engineers designed the ims yes? i always think of that when i get the "porsche knows better' stuff used as an argument.

Amen to that.

[MWS]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

porsche engineers designed the ims yes? i always think of that when i get the "porsche knows better' stuff used as an argument.

Like I said in my post...compromise. Personally, I think Porsche did know better, but compromise won out...

Additionally, I think that mikefocke was also on point, and sharing an honest opinion. From my time on this forum, he has provided a great wealth of knowledge and support to those willing to learn. Maytag, I get your wit, and most people know that I am an avid proponent of sarcasm, but I also know when to stuff a gag in my mouth and just listen....not to suggest your comments were inappropriate just not entirely informed. Do a search of mikefocke's posts and you will find the wealth of information he's provided, many times with data to support his points. Other than that, please keep being blunt and abrasive for the world has become too homogenized and bland...and we all need a good splash of hot sauce.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

It is your car and I wouldn't begin to tell you how your car should sound.

Yeah, but see ... you went ahead and did so anyway, in your most passive aggressive sorry of way. Haha.
#1 rule they teach in communications 101: anything you said before you say "but" (Or in your case, "however") is negated, and dismissed by that one word.

Radium king hit it on the nose with his reply, so I won't belabor that specific point. I'll more generally address the larger idea that there are some who lead, and some who follow. Your instructions to me are to follow, with no regard whatsoever for where i wish to go.

You seem, mikefocke, to be enamored with Porsche as a brand, and all the "mystique" the name can conjure. You seem to imply in several instances in that post, that to change what Porsche had given us is to defile it.

Yeah.... so..... I'm not that guy. I'm the guy who took my heavily - modified Ducati racebike that I built to an event promoted by Ducati, where their factory team technician said to me "that's the bike Ducati SHOULD have built." Yeah... I'm THAT guy.

Imagine if your holy Porsche engineers had someone like you in their ear when they were young, telling them "don't change what's been done.... they know more than you"....

Imagine for a moment that to me, and to many like me, this is just a car. Only after I modify it to suit my own likes and dislikes will it be MY car. This is, after all, the spirit that bred performance cars (and their engineers,) as well as the American love affair with the automobile.

And as for my ears: what's that you say? Hahaha


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[maytag]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

I would wager that removing the factory cold air intake and replacing it with a warm/hot intake would result in a loss of HP on a dyno.................

Jfp of course your theory is sound, the question remains: How effective is the "shroud" at blocking the heat? As far as insulating qualities of the materials, clearly the thin abs used by the factory for the intake tube and airbox is not an efficient insulator. But it is somewhat sealed from the warm air of the engine bay. So how effective are the panel and gasket in comparison?



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[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by maytag

Jfp of course your theory is sound, the question remains: How effective is the "shroud" at blocking the heat? As far as insulating qualities of the materials, clearly the thin abs used by the factory for the intake tube and airbox is not an efficient insulator. But it is somewhat sealed from the warm air of the engine bay. So how effective are the panel and gasket in comparison?



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The air in the engine compartment on these cars is hot, that is why they put a fan in there to aid cooling. Hot air does not make as much power as cold air, period. That is why Porsche put the factory cold air system in in the first place.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

The air in the engine compartment on these cars is hot, that is why they put a fan in there to aid cooling. Hot air does not make as much power as cold air, period. That is why Porsche put the factory cold air system in in the first place.

agreed.. but ignores the question: how effective is the shroud/gasket? The air travels the same path whether into the factory system or another filter, IF that filter is effectively blocked from drawing air from another source. Perhaps I'm missing something obvious, JFP, and that's why I keep coming back to the same question, and you keep giving me the same answer, haha. My knowledge on this car is so far only about surface-deep. I haven't had any time to even crawl under it yet.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by maytag

agreed.. but ignores the question: how effective is the shroud/gasket? The air travels the same path whether into the factory system or another filter, IF that filter is effectively blocked from drawing air from another source. Perhaps I'm missing something obvious, JFP, and that's why I keep coming back to the same question, and you keep giving me the same answer, haha. My knowledge on this car is so far only about surface-deep. I haven't had any time to even crawl under it yet.

My point is that you have to have a sealed air path from the outside to the throttle body; some of the posted photos show open filters, which are going to suck in hot air with out that seal, losing HP. Most of the jury rigged attempts at this we have see leaked air like a sieve......

[maytag]

Originally Posted by BRAN

uhm...how about desnorkel + race filter (BMC or K&N)?
A little bit more power and way more intake sound.
That way you won't have all the hassle with the cone cold air intakes, because it is all easy fit plug'n'play.

Thanks bran, hadn't considered this.... probably should.

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