Thinking of buying a 97 Boxster - Engine Failure Question
 

I am thinking of buying a 1997 Boxster with approximately 100k on it. I wanted to know if the RMS and Intermediate shaft failures typically stop happening after a certain mileage? I know with the 99 Miatas, the #4 bearings typically fail before 40-50k with very very few cases occurring afterwards. I know boxsters havent been around long enough to really rack up mileage, but I figured if anyone would know, it would be someone here. :)

My experience tells me that if a car has made it to 100k without such a failure, it probably is not a faulty engine. I just wanted to make sure I am not off the mark, as I do not have much experience with Boxsters.

The car needs some other work, too, and I didn't want to get involved with a failing engine as it is far beyond my capability, and I do not have a spare 9k to spend on a new engine.

There is a relatively new thread here but it doesn't address the high mileage question that I have and that others will surely have as the cars gain more mileage. :)

With this type of car, you want to go for the lowest mileage, newest one you can. 100k miles is A LOT for a Boxster. I think that may be the highest mileage one I've heard of. If you do decide to pursue it, spend the $300 or so it costs to do a "pre-sale inspection" at a dealer. It will be the best spent money on this car. They can tell you about any issues the car may have at that point.

Just from a wear standpoint, there is no reason to believe the engine would be worn out any more than a 100,000 mile Miata. Typically, late model Porsche engines should be pretty long-lived, a couple hundred K at least.
As said, if at all possible, take it to a dealer for a PPI. They can pull up the warranty history from the VIN, and at least be able to tell you if an engine has been replaced under warranty. My assumption here is that there are no maint. records with the car.
Some of our forum members have said the RMS is a "wear" item, and can be expected to fail eventually on every engine. Once the RMS makes it past the premature failure period, how long with it last? I haven't seen any evidence that would lead me to believe anybody knows.
If the car has been maintained properly during it's 100k miles, it could be a decent buy. If not, it could be a disaster waiting to happen ... to you.
The used car world does not seem to me to be short of Boxsters, so you might think about passing on this one, particularly if it has known needs, and look for a better car.

I cannot, for the life of me, think of a single reason to buy a Boxster with 100k miles on it. Not one.

Even if this is the steal of the century, the maintenance costs are going to kill you. Hell, a new top is a couple grand at minimum. Why bother? There are so very many used Boxsters out there with low miles for relatively low money. You don't mention how much they are asking for this 100k miles Boxster but I'd be willing to be that whatever the asking price for another $3-5K you could get one with under 40k miles - and newer! Trust me - they aren't exactly flying off the used car lots so you should be able to negotiate pretty strongly.

I also strongly disagree with Chiefsalami that you want the lowest mileage. I think this forum has pretty much shown that you really want a Boxster with around 30K miles on it. Any possible engine failure is severely reduced after those miles. An older Boxster with low miles is ironically a risk. The vehicle hasn't been driven and unfortunately problems seem to crop up when the new owner starts driving it every day (see also: ME).

As to the RMS - I don't think mileage has much to do with it. It seems like a gremlin that just pokes it's nasty little German head up randomly....

Hi,

All good points, but as far as RMS goes, the majority which fail prematurely do so under 30k mi., usually under 24k mi. There have been failures at higher mileages, but these are rare. So much so, that there well may be other issues at play in these instances.

But, the Main Seal on any car is a wear item. The Front and Rear Seals on your Chevy Smallblock or Honda 4 will eventually wear out.

These seals are essentially a rubber (sometimes synthetic, leather or cardboard depending on the car) lip which is precision engineered to rub (read direct contact) against the circumference of the crankshaft as it spins, this is what provides the seal and keeps the Oil in. Think of it as similar to a rubber doughnut with a shaft running through the middle which presses against the doughnut around it's whole inside diameter.

The crankshaft theoretically spins on a stable axis, but eventually, due to wear in the bearing shells, it's axis changes slightly (or it will wobble slightly) and it will exert more pressure, and therefore wear, to one part of the seal and away from the opposite part. When this happens, the seal is compromised and the seal leaks.

One of the keys to a long-lived seal is to have it centered on the Crankshaft's spin axis, and this is where Porsche has had some difficulty. The M96 engine block halves are cast using a proprietary casting method developed by, and adopted from, Audi. The advantage of this type of casting theoretically removes any need for post- cast machining the block to center bore the Crankshaft opening. This means less $$ to produce the engine and more profit for the manufacturer. But, it also eliminates the possibility of post-machining of the Block halves because no excess material is present, as in conventional casting, to machine away; this is why a bad block cannot be saved.

But, the tolerances are not as good as if the block were precision center-bored. If the block is really off the seal will not center-align with the spin axis of the Crankshaft (Porsche measures the block on failed RMS to determine whether to refit a seal or the engine entirely) . The original Seals were not able to tolerate much variance by flexing sufficiently to maintain a proper seal. The redesigned seals and those from the Cayenne block, do seem to be more flexible and capable of accomodating greater variances better than the original seal. This is why for many, it's a one-time repair. But, for others, the variance is too great and it will consistently fail or require engine replacement. Of course, should a Crankshaft be inaccurately machined and slip through Quality Control, it too would cause a premature failure of the seal, but these are probably as rare as the same occurance in a Honda. Also, should there be a burr on the Crankshaft, this too can tear the seal and cause it to fail. The seal will also sometimes scar the Crankshaft by wearing a groove into it. The original seal is set 11mm deep into the Block, but Porsche recommends seating a replacement seal 13mm deep. This way, it comes into contact with a fresh, smooth part of the Crankshaft.

Also, each of the materials used in making the seal have their own lifespan. Rubber and other materials harden with time and heat cycling and the seal becomes less pliable. At this point, it is less able to endure the stress placed on it and it can wear or crack, again loosing it's integrity and a leak develops. Due to greater manufacturing tolerances and better materials, these seals now last a very long time, somewhere in the neighborhood of 150k-250k mi., but still not forever...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant to say. I would have gone into much deeper detail of course but I'm a man of few wo

Jim, Your post completely made my day. Thank you for the in depth explanation, detail, and for actually answering my question! Hopefully the car will hold out for at least a little while.

denverpete, The car is a 97 Guards Red on Black with about 100k on it. The top was already replaced. It also has several other parts that have been replaced and the car has been maintained well. It will be traded in next week, and I have the opportunity to buy it for $11k.

From what I've gathered, late model 98 and 99 MY Boxsters have sleeve problems. I also don't know if the intermediate shaft problem is related to the RMS issue or not.. I am also very concerned about that. Jim, if you explained it in your post, I apologize. It's going to take a couple readings for me to make sure I understand everything you said in detail. :)

Well, damn. Maybe there is a price!

The intermediate shaft may or may not be related to RMS - but if it was going to happen it probably would have happened. Most see this problem under 20k miles (see also: ME). Also note that like the sleeve thing, the intermediate shaft has become the "catch all" for engine failure. That's not to say it couldn't fail - but if it does it will probably be for reasons any engine might fail at 100k plus miles.

Sounds like a good deal - get a PPI. This won't preclude a future RMS or engine failure but will put your mind at ease for other possible issues.

Then - enjoy your ride! Good Luck and post pictures after you buy it!

Jim,

Great info. Question for you, I recently brought my 99 Box in for the 30k. Dealer said that I have a very minor leak in the RMS but not to worry about it at this time but to keep that in mind. Garage floor has been clean with no evidence of leaking fluids. Due to the 30k miles, am I past the point of RMS "failure" though I may still have problems in the future ?

Hi,

Actually, no. You already have RMS failure, any leak, even a slight one, is a failure of the seal. This failure is most often progressive. How long you have until it gets much worse, no one can say, but it's never gonna stay static or get better - it will get worse and there's nothing you can do to mitigate the timeline.

That said, plan a budget now so you don't get smacked in the face with it when you least expect it. Also, I would try to ammortize the costs by factoring in a Clutch or Flywheel at the same time as the labor should be the same and only add a couple hundred to the existing cost. Even if you don't actually need it, it's better to throw away $150 worth of unused Clutch than to fork out another $600 in a year or so when the existing clutch finally wears out. That way, you'll get the most for your money. Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Jim,

Thanks for the info ! That's what I thought, but I was hoping I was wrong.

Dealer quoted $951 for the RMS, so I have about a grand sitting in a slush fund waiting...

How will I know when it is time to do the RMS ?

Thanks again,

Nick

http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-general-discussions/6218-boxsters-grandfather-cool-pictures.html

Hi,

Well, you can change it at any time, but at some point, the leak will get worse, spots on the floor, etc. You don't want to lose the seal completely while the car is running because you run the risk of ruining the motor. Keep an eye on the Garage floor and also on the dipstick (don't trust the digi-gauge) when you're on the road.

Also, as I mentioned, do the clutch/flywheel at the same time. Ask for separate quotes on each repair and then for the two combined. My local dealer will do them all for $60 more than the clutch alone + Parts, and the $60 is really pure profit as the seal takes all of 5-10 min. for an experienced mechanic who already has the motor open.

The RMS procedure is really simple, once you've got everything else out of the way. Much simpler in fact than the RMS on my Lotus. On the Lotus, it is a negative fit seal which means that you have to take the rear cover off and pry out the old seal, then heat the cover in an oven to 300° to expand it and then insert the new seal - the cover cools/contracts around it to make a seal - lots more work, but then again, they don't fail either... Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Thanks again, Jim. I will keep a close eye on the garage floor and the dipstick.

I will seriously consider your clutch / flywheel suggestion. Makes sense...

Post pictures of the Lotus sometime. I would love to see it !

Thanks again,

Nick

Hi,

Here you go, it's not the best pic, but it's all I have loaded on my comp right now. This car took Best in Show in the Concours d' Elegance at the 2002 Lotus Owners Gathering - nat'l. Lotus convention. I've had it in nine shows and it's taken 1st every time - no garage queen though, I track this car at least 3 times a year...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Bought my '97 w/ 100,500 miles on it
 

Still runs and looks showroom new. The prior owner had all records and was very well taken care of. Basically had done all maintenance for me. New shocks/struts, new top/transmission, new belts, new tires.
If anything would have gone wrong it would have by now.

Cool car, Jim ! Must be a blast to drive !

Thanks for the pic...

Nick

Great information here, guys. I just took my 2002 S in for a PPI today at Sunset Imports (I believe one of your sponsors), and picked it up a few minutes ago. My car also has a leaking RMS and they also stated the clutch felt too stiff, which indicates it needs replacing as well. To me, the clutch feels pretty typical Porsche (of course, I don't have enough of a base for comparison like the techs do). I still have plenty of free travel and it seems to engage just fine, though.

On the phone, they said the job to replace the seal, clutch, and flywheel would run about $3000. That sounds pretty high to me though, given that just the parts alone add up to about $1300.

Does this seem reasonable, or should all of this be less money?

Yes, the stiff clutch IS a symptom on these cars. I would assume it was about to be toast.

$3K sounds as bit high but if this is a PPI, I would assume that to be the number and act accordingly.

When I brought my Box in for the 30k I found out I have a minor leak in the RMS. Dealer quoted $951. So $3000 for the RMS, clutch, and flywheel sounds about right.

Hope this helps...

Nick

$11k for a '97' boxster
 

sounds like a good deal, if your PPI gives you a "clean" bill of health. It would be useful if the owner has a list of all items replaced--top, brakes,wheels bearings, suspension--which will give you a handle on what your short term maintenance items might be.

As I see it, if you get a terrific deal on the front end, you can deal with the expenses down the road since you've avoided the depreciation. If you check the archives here, there have been a number of guys buying low mileage newer cars at higher prices that they've had to put big $ in shortly there after. In my view, that's the worst of both world

Hi,

That's an awful quote! The Dealer is charging you to do both jobs separately, not combined. Yet, about 50% of the procedure is the same for each.

A local dealer charges $60(+parts) more to do the RMS when you have the clutch/flywheel done, and that's still charging an hour extra labor when it's a 5-10 min. job once the motor is opened up for the Clutch. That puts it around $2300.

It's unconscionable that so many Dealerships are such profiteers. This is something PCNA should look into. There should not be such varying prices for the same work. It's a racket pure and simple...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

You're right. And (except for parts, where they can offer a decent discount), Sunset Imports seems to stick it to you wherever they can. I'm going to try to work with them, and see if they can offer me a better quote on that work. There are also some other good shops in the area that could do it.

I looked at the car and unfortunately, it really was a $11k boxster. I didnt find any signs of an RMS leak. The plus side of the car was that all the maintenance had been done, it had been lady driven, ownership history was good, it had a new top, new alternator, and other new parts that had been replaced. She claimed her parents were very anal about maintenance b/c they didnt want to see her stranded on the road.

The downsides were that it had been lady driven (after seeing it and hearing her talk, I could only assume she treated it like a fashion accessory), the top leaked, the cables were cutting through the plastic above the windows, and a metal piece was damaged causing it to not go up and down automatically. whether it was a transmission cable or not, i dont know. she claimed to have a $600 quote on it. the lock actuators were broken so she couldnt lock it from the exterior (she had a $1200 quote on that). the airbag light was on and had been on for 4 years. she said it was a factory recall but jim ellis porsche and hennesey porsche wouldnt honor it, but that a dealership in charleston would. while it had apparently been replaced, the clutch felt awful. It had ungodly amounts of clutch shudder and didn't feel smooth at all. the paint was fading in places, it was pretty scratched, it had over 10 dents in it from a college campus, it had very very yellowed headlights, it was due for its 100k servicing, and more things i can't think of right now.

I think it may have been an $11k boxster, but I'd rather spend more money and get something good than take the cheap route and get a headache. Plus some of her stories didn't add up, so I bailed. She claimed to be getting 10.5k from a dealer, so I told her to take it. It's always a shame to see nice things trashed like that.

Good Call! Seems the old adage "If it's too good to be true..." I am an owner of a '97. I love the car and it's pristine. But I paid too much and went for it based on appearance and low miles. No regrets but it takes some extra care. It was PPI'd and cleared all inspections, but the dealer missed a couple of important items. One - tires were original and nearly 9 years old, $1,050 to replace. Two - Convertible cables never addressed by original owner, no problem yet, but I watch the retract and raise process like a hawk. Any small oil leak creates undo stress as well! If I were do redo the Porsche purchase process I would have held out for a newer car. Hope you find a car that meets your requirements, but walking away from this one is a smart move! Good Luck!

Just to close on the issue of cost of the RMS and/or clutch replacement work, I called a couple of local shops, very highly recommended by other Porsche owners and the local Posche Club. The dealer had quoted me around $3k to do everything, and one of the two shops quoted me $2k for everything. I'm going to take the car to them to have a look at it, but I'm probably going to do it with them. It will be getting a new clutch, pressure plate, fork, flywheel, and rear main seal. Potentially a new clutch slave cylinder, too.

im also think about getting a 97 boxster w/ 92miles. Seems to be in good shape but hasnt been inspected.

Couldnt a seal be replaced pretty easily by yourself? Ive got clutches/rear main seals on plenty of cars but im not familair with the boxsters. Is there must from separating the tranny and engine in a driveway? If its not a problem the seal couldnt be more than a hundred or so....

The engine and trans mut be removed from the car as a unit and then worked on..

oh i c. The transmission cant be removed from the engine and then the seal be replaced like on most other vehicles?

I don't believe so.

At least at the local dealer, they take the whole deal out every time they do a RMS. Perhaps that is just their process?

Doc Willen would know for sure. Why don't you PM him!

That is the process for anyone who could do that work. There simply isn't room to somehow remove the transmission with the engine still in place.

engine/tranny
 

Whoa... the engine and transmission CAN be separated leaving the engine in the car. I'm in the midst of removing and replacing the RMS right now at home. This is a fairly straightforward proceedure for anyone who has ever done these kinds of things before. Yes, there are some particulars for the Boxster (as w/ any vehicle), but a little research will quickly bring them to light. There are MANY good threads that address the process, complete w/ pics and comments, that will provide the insight needed. The Bentley service manual is a great resource, but not 100% complete in its information. The price the dealerships are getting for this job is crazy... I may have to do this as a sideline! Seriously guys and gals - don't get crazy over these cars - they are just machines that require a little work now and then.