986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

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- - 2.7L vs. 2.5L? (http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-general-discussions/6544-2-7l-vs-2-5l.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

1-somene posted on here that the Consumer Reports folks reported that drivetrain issues were fewest with the 2.7 and 3.2's from 2000-2002. The 03 and 04 featured some redesign of the drive shaft? that's starting to report problems in increasing numbers with no real problems in this area being reported by earlier models. Before 2000 of course there were the porosity issues with the engine block on the 2.5's, tons of cases to report on that front which surely had to be a factor in redesigning the engine and introducing the 2.7 and 3.2 ...

Someone posted here..?? That's not a very definitive arguement. Just looking at the issues posted here over the months, there were more problems reported from the '00-'03 cars than the earlier ones. To a degree, this makes some sense since there were about twice as many of these models produced. So far as the porosity issues, this has taken on a scale of Urban Myth which probably now surpasses the $50 Corvette the guy died in. I have a TSB from Porsche which shows that this was limited to exactly 136 Cars Worldwide! Give me a day to dig it up, and I can supply you with all 136 Engine/VIN numbers, so to boost your arguement with this misinformation is just wrong. The odds of finding one of those 136 Cars, and one which has not had the engine already replaced, is astronomical - it is simply not a valid reason to ignore the 2.5s.

2-I never said the 2.5 doesn't have pep. But if you have driven both you see that though the cars may be similar in weight the seat of the pants feel very different coming out of corners and coming off braking with the substantial increase in torque from the 3.2. (why would anyone pass this up if its in their budget??)
The more power you add to the Boxster the more the excellent handling/balance is magnified well except for that moment of polar inertia when the car breaks away like no other and you're just a passenger. But no car is perfect.

No, but you implied that it didn't, that somehow it was inadequate which is simply not true, and I have driven both, all 3 in fact - 2.5, 2.7, 3.2 Tip/5-speed/6-speed.

3-Again no one ever said you can't adequately merge on traffic and overtkae slower cars in a 2.5 BUT if you have driven a 3.2 you will see how much easier of an effort it is, particularly higher up on the power band.

Again, the implication was that you couldn't. Fact is, the 2.5 Boxster is faster than maybe 80% of all cars on the road, that ain't nothin'.

4-The Boxster market varies greatly. You might be able to get a 3.2 in one part of the country for the same amount of money that it would cost you for 2.7 (with both having the same mileage,condition etc.) in another area. If you are willing to buy with just an independent inspection report sight unseen you could get into an S for the same amount of money as a 2.7. Its not always signficantly more or more at all. Like I said this a very good time to be 986 buyer, lots of fluctuation in prices and choices by region.

That may be true in some rare or unique instance(s), but in general, the S will cost you more to buy and more to keep than the Base model will.

5-I'ts not a given that the S depreciates at a lower rate but the rules of supply and demmand are often a factor. There are 150 Boxsters for sale on Ebay right now and only 50 of them are S models. Allot of people are locating (not always buying) through online trading sites like Ebay. You very well could end up selling to this pool or making your Boxster known to this segment of buyers who rely on the internet only. If the trend in this buying pool shifts towards more buyers wanting 3.2's and willing to pay more for an S model then obviously there will be fewer S models to choose from (and even fewer well preserved ones) and the 2.7's(in similar mileage,condition etc.) WILL have to be lowered in price to entice a potential 2nd hand buyer away from a 3.2. This lowering could be at a increasingly faster rate given the ever growing numbers of Boxsters coming off leases every day.

Pure speculation built upon a lot of assumptions (Buts, Ifs, Coulds), maybe right, maybe wrong, but as speculation, it's not really a valid point in whether to decide between the various MY. And you fail to factor in the new competition in the used market - the Cayman S. Already several of these have been sold previously owned. They will cut into Boxster sales to some degree too.

I did say it could not it will cost you money. Its hard to show this statiscally because no one really tracks resale values this closely. It's no different than with the Carreras. Relative to overall production of the 996, the C4S was small in production and the market is very good for that car thus its still quiet expensive to get into one. Supply and demmand. The pool of buyers for Boxsters is going to grow 10 fold as people look to get a piece of the Porsche brand for little money and a very good track record of reliability. This hasn't really happened much in the past with this brand.
There's no way to say now whether the demmand for S models will be greater but the fact that there are fewer to choose from makes it a strong possibility that like the C4S the BoxsterS will be more desireable in the 2nd hand market and a lower depreciation rate could be the result. It's as likely as it is unlikely. If I'm a buyer and can get into the rarer model for not much more money its a no brainer.

Again, a lot of generality. Who says the market is growing? There's lots of competition out there - M Roadster, Z4, S2000, Sky, 350Z Convt., MX-5, Audi TT, etc. On the contrary, I believe this market is so oversaturated that it isn't expanding at all and prices are going to get softer, not firmer

Hi,

See above...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

I would have to agree that the more recent 'S' models will hold their value better. Keep in mind there seems to be a HP escalation in the auto industry the last couple of years and many of the standard economy sedans are getting larger engines. I have to think that when someone is shopping for a 'sports car' they are not going to want to buy one with less power than a Honda Accord. That has to hurt some of the older non 'S' boxsters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drburton

Hi,

You may be correct for a certain segment of the Market. But, the essence of a True Sports Car is that they do tend to be underpowered. Traditionally, because of their nimbleness, they usually felt faster than they actually were. That fact is somewhat skewed in the US Market for a couple of reasons. First, roads in Europe (the birthplace of the Sports Car) tend to be very twisty due to natural obstacles - Hills, Mountains, Rivers and Streams as well as man-made ones - farms, towns and villages which existed long before the motorcar - too much power here can be a hindrance. Whereas in America, roads tend to be straighter with gentle curves as most towns were designed to accomodate the motorcar, so nimbleness was suplanted by horsepower.

Also, Americans traditionally had to choose between American Cars with their massive engines and power and the underpowered Euro Cars. Detroit used this power advantage with great success in their Marketing campaigns of the past 50 years and we've all become swayed by it to one degree or another. But more, or bigger, is not always better.

I reject the notion that the S is rarer. Porsche produces it in batches that their research indicates is in demand. If people wanted more, Porsche would grind them out like link-sausages. With today's manufacturing, there's nothing to prevent them doing so. Meeting Market demand is the name of the game. People have to realize that the Porsche of today is not the Porsche of yesteryear with limited production capacity and allowing quality to limit quantity - they're a Big Boy now ruled as much by their closing share price as by any vision to be the ultimate in performance.

But, there is a small segment which takes a more encompassing look at performance and doesn't zero-in on power alone. This helps to explain the Miata's popularity, though admittedly price point and other factors were also important.

I drive a 2.5, I could have bought anything I wanted, including a 911TT. I chose the 2.5 because to me, it is more representative of the traditional Sports Car. I feel the power of the S is unecessary, especially when one considers that it too cannot be termed a Giant Killer, it's still bringing up the rear in the HP wars - Porsche purposely saw to that.

There is a polarization between the S and Base model owners which is just stupid. Most people would be thrilled to own either one - we are the fortunate few. If I were swayed by what others thought, I might be inclined to want the power of the S, but I don't. Nor do I feel my Boxster is inferior to the S in any way, in fact, quite the oppsite, get in the twistys and the HP is negated to a great degree. I feel it's truer to the Sports Car philosophy, and it's the original Boxster model. I wouldn't trade my 2.5 for an S, even straight-up - I have the car I want. In fact, I will never trade-up my Boxster, I'll never own another one. If I get rid of this one, I'll buy something else - so many cars - so little time. I have owned 39 cars in my lifetime and never once bought a repeat. In contrast, my Brother has owned a VW Jetta since 1985 (4 of them) and just traded his '02 in on a new '06 - I can't even imagine.

You S owners need to appreciate that not everyone feels as you do. Nor did we settle for the Base because the S was out of reach, anyone who did made a mistake. Base or S, they both provide the Boxster experience...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

"Again, a lot of generality. Who says the market is growing? There's lots of competition out there - M Roadster, Z4, S2000, Sky, 350Z Convt., MX-5, Audi TT, etc. On the contrary, I believe this market is so oversaturated that it isn't expanding at all and prices are going to get softer, not firmer"

HA! those cars are not Porsches! :p
seriously Most people buying the Boxster aren't familiar with the proximity in performance offered by (SOME) of the cars you listed. Most people looking at Boxsters (not the standar enthusiast type) are buying on brand name which puts Porsche in its unique position in terms of used value.
On paper the Boxster should not be as expensive as it is either new or used.
Yet people still pony up $30K for a used car that has only 250HP, while some offer that performance NEW. Why? because Porsche exists in its won little world. One that the dudes in Germany take full advantage of.

p.s.
I think you inferred that I was inferring that the 2.5 was inadequate in power. Its obviously not because I drove a 1.8 4 cylinder Miata that merged and overtook cars just muy bueno. 2.5 is more than enough for every day needs.

You guys have this out of your system?

Seriously, who is willingly going to buy a Porshe with 201HP and a reputation for grenading at times?

:dance:

wow! I am noticing a difference between Honda S2000 owners and Boxster owners...The latter owners are far more knowledgable about the cars they drive!
I also didnt anticipate that this would become a heated debate! Right now, I just want something which I can enjoy as my daily driver. I live in a prarie canadian city so I do not need gross amounts of power but some would be nice as this car would also be used for autox and possibly some hot laps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brucelee

You guys have this out of your system?

Seriously, who is willingly going to buy a Porsche with 201HP and a reputation for grenading at times?

:dance:

Hi,

The former is true of the pre-'00 cars, but the latter remains true to this day, and from everything I read, not to any lesser degree either...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Seriously, who is willingly going to buy a Porsche with 201HP and a reputation for grenading at times?

:dance:

Me... and I can even spell Porsche correctly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grizzly

Me... and I can even spell Porsche correctly.

Hey, don't get ****************ty with the moderator. I have to read every bloody post here, so forgive the typo!

OK now?

:troll:

Oh great! The FNG pissed off the moderator!

I hope I didn't seriously anger you...just bustin' balls. I'm a product of my North Philadelphia upbringing. I can't help myself. :D

Don't worry, grammar really isn't one of my strong points. You'll certainly have ample opportunity to exact your revenge upon my sorry ass! :matchup:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grizzly

No need for revenge. All is good! By the way, what is a FNG?????

I went to school in Philly, twice. I went undergrad to Philly Textile and then on to Wharton/Penn for graduate school.

I miss Philly. Haven't been back for a while.

Be well!

:)

I love my '98....It's not the fastest car around, but I love it for the driving experience. The engine was replaced in 2002 before I bought it, and since I bought it 14 months ago, I have had no engine problems. The cam cover seals were replaced, yes, but the car was not losing oil, and I knew my warranty would cover it. The car handles great with the M030 suspension, and everywhere I go I get looks and compliments. Even from people driving cars which are more expensive and have more HP. Today some guy in an Audi TT wanted to show me his "stuff" so he pulls out fast past me and gets in front of me in the turning lane to exit off the highway...He was a good 100 feet in front of me as he entered the exit ....Then the road started to twist abruptly, and he had to slow down dramatically.....3/4 of the way thru the turn I was on him already and I had to slow down because he couldn't take the curve very quickly.....My car was hardly straining tho ;)

Did I say I love this car? :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brucelee

F.N.G.: Official U.S Government acronym... F**king New Guy.

Textile, great school. Wharton...now I AM impressed.

You know, Philly gets in your blood and you can never truly get it out of your system. I live in a great town, with a house looking out over the Chesapeake Bay, but if the opportunity presented itself I would move back to the City of Brotherly Love first thing in the morning.

My family is still up there, so I make the trip often. If you decide to visit sometime, let me know. We can grab a cheesesteak wit and run the Art Museum steps, though not necessarily in that order.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Hi,

I'm originally from Philly too. My family lived in Drexel Hill, near Villanova. I moved away while very young, but spent most of my summers there and the obligatory month at the Shooorrr. I miss it too...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

I agree with MNBoxster about the standard, the older the car, the more problems you will see. If I had to do it all over again, I'd buy the standard. If I wanted more overtaking power I'd get an STI. I just wanted a fun car to haul around in on weekends with the top down. But I noticed that you said you would AutoX your box so the S may be for you (IMO, a good driver in a standard could whip a sorry driver in an S, depends on the driver at AutoX). If you decide to get a box, almost every problem that has occurred in the car has a fix for it on the internet. and ppl on these forums are very knowledgable and can point to in the right direction for a DIY. Boxsters are dependable and will last but ALL boxsters have problems, it's just a matter of how much of a DIYer you are to fix it. The standard will give you just as many smiles as an S would.

porsche always makes something alittle better to charge more, just depends on how much more you want to spend, all are good. besides who buys a porsche to resale it? I bought mine to drive it til it dies. :cheers:

O.K., I know I'm getting WAY off topic here, but you all read the Sharks in the Mountains (we gotta do one of these) thread, so here's the plan:

We converge on Philadelphia for a Boxster get together. We can hook up at the Mummer's Museum (Do not make fun of the Mummers. You'll get beat up). I'll take you deep into the old neighborhood for a real Philly Cheesesteak. Not one of those tourist trap jobs, but a true "I can't hold onto this sucker" grease runnin' down your forearm Cheesesteak (Do not order lettuce tomato and mayonaise. You'll get beat up). We can catch an afternoon Phillies game at the new stadium (Do not wear another team's jersey. You'll get beat up). Then we can squirt across the bridge and downashore. I'm certain the Jersey Troopers would be happy to settle the whole 2.5, 2.7, 3.2 argument for us. (The guys with the fastest cars will get beat up). ;) Then, we can head to Cozy Morley's in Wildwood for a night of beer and oldies, watch the dolphins jumping in the Atlantic at daybreak and then head back to our respective parts of the globe.

On second thought, let's not. We'll get beat up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grizzly

O.K., I know I'm getting WAY off topic here ...We'll get beat up.

LOL! Finally, someone talking some sense!

When I was at Textile, we used to walk down to Dalsandros for the best Cheesesteak in the world, or at least it seemed it

Boy, I could go for one of those right now!

:cheers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grizzly

This takes me back. I was at the last Phillies game at Connie Mack. My college roomate actually took one of the seats and managed to get it out of the stadium since the fans were actually running down on the field, trying to pull up home plate.

I bet he still has that seat!

Small world man! Some of my classmates and I made the front page of the Inquirer and the Evening Bulletin with our plans to try to save Connie Mack from being torn down. It didn't work. I saw my first major league game there with my Grandfather. I still have one of those little bats they used to give out on Bat Day. What were they thinking?!?! A stadium full of Philadelphians, a losing team, unlimited beer, and they hand everybody a bat?!?!? Ah, the good old days.

The game you saw never concluded, as I remember, because the stadium was being systematically disassembled by the rioting fans. :eek: