IMS Replacement Gone Bad - at my dealer!
 

OK, first, I'm not naming the dealer, so don't bother asking. Local dealer, excellent reputation, Shop Foreman is highly regarded by the local PCA chapter.

I brought my 986 S to a this dealer a week and a half ago for an LN IMS-B installation, RMS, and new clutch.

I was supposed to take delivery yesterday, but my service advisor called and said "it was making a sound they didn't like" and they were going to pull the transmission again to check it out.

Today he called and informed me that the engine was out of timing after the IMS-B installation, and that several valves were bent when they restarted the engine. They're going to replace the valves, and repair any damage; he mentioned "machine shop" when he was updating me. He also said they were going to pull the cylinder head.

So... none of this is on my dime and they've promised to make things 100% right, but what questions should I ask and what should I be concerned about???

How long are they going to warranty the engine for? Are they going to split the cases and check the bottom end bearings and the con rods? How many miles on the engine now? That sucks, sorry to hear.

Ask them if they locked the crank at TDC and the cam on bank 1 before pulling the bearing.

I asked about locking the cams, but I don't think the service advisor is all that familiar with the process. I'll have to talk to the shop foreman.

rexcramer, 30K on the engine.

Getting the IMS bearing replaced seemed like a good idea at the time. Bearing was dual row. I don't know its condition; I'm betting it was in good shape.

Wow. Did mine at my shop. Locked crank, both cams. Had to buy 4 new cam port plugs. Easy as pie.

That really sucks. Really sorry to hear that, man. Best of luck.

That motor has/had a lot of life left in it. I hope they will indemnify you for future issues. Hold their feet to the fire. Best of luck.

Hello kjc2050,

i would ask them to do a detailed photo documentary and also i would insist on seeing the opened engine in detail. If you have a lot of bended valves, in general you'll have damaged valve seats, or maybe even damaged cylinder heads. Also if you'll have marks in the pistons and their structure can be damaged.

If you have damaged heads, head seats and pistons this is a conplete engine rebuilt and not a "i quickly replace all bended valves for you and everything will be fine blabla" job.

Regards, Markus

The valves (steel) are bent because the pistons (aluminum) crashed into them meaning the pistons are damaged. I would call them scrap at this point. The pistons also saw loads that they are not designed for which calls into question everything connected to them, the rod bearings, rods, and main bearings, even the crank. The effect on the engine is exactly what is seen with an IMS bearing failure. I'd be looking for an extended warranty on this work at a minimum. I don't think it would be unreasonable to request a complete tear down all the way to the crank to inspect for damage. The shop will lose money in this case, but it is their screw up and they need to make it right at this point and not worry about profit.

Kind of like this:

http://www.renntech.org/forums/uploa...1231775002.jpg http://www.renntech.org/forums/uploa...1231775013.jpg

Just run some Sea Foam through it. That will clear right up.

Sad news
 

Sounds like the engine is done, if it is would be asking for new short block. :mad:

" Local dealer, excellent reputation, Shop Foreman is highly regarded by the local PCA chapter."
But the mechanic who did the work did not know the single most important task is to lock the cams correctly.
This is why I favor using a small .local M96 Indie who is recommended by your friends on this Forum.
Suggest you research the issues of repairing an M96 after such damage. It may be better to get a good used engine installed.That may exceed the value of the car. Hope you are getting some good legal/tech advice?

I think that we all know the real answer to that question.

My guess is they gave the job to a junior tech who likely never did it before or a more senior guy that thought he could cheat it and not lock the cams. I have seen techs get away with it to save time. Looks like that guy lost. As someone who would never do well at flat rate on cars, that stuff makes me cringe...

Dealer made this mess? Dealer owes you a porsche remanufactured motor with a warranty.

Man this is the stuff nightmares are made of.....

Bent valves indicate that serious damage was done - especially if the engine was operated long enough for someone to say that "it was making a sound they didn't like".

You know that the tech ran it for awhile before he told the shop manager. Then they ran it for awhile trying to figure out what the problem was. Then the engine was probably run more as they verified that it was out of time.

I wouldn't accept anything less than a replacement engine. This isn't s stripped spark plug thread in a head that is a simple, fairly reliable, and well understood mechanical fix. You're looking at most of an engine rebuild. How are you going to explain an engine rebuild due to dealer caused damage when you try to re-sell the car? As soon as a buyer hears "re-built damaged engine", they will take $$$$'s off the asking price.

I would start collecting your facts around what causes this damage. Dealer might claim the damage was pre-exisiting and had nothing to do with IMS change. It will be up to you to prove they were negligent. That can be tough on an older car.

Ugh, ugh, ugly, idiot mechanic. This is st least a total tear down of the engine. Check tolerances on the crankshaft bearings, rods, pistons. Check for cylinder marking, valve seat damage, etc., etc. Dealer is better off getting you a recertified engine.

No, this isn't the case. They are accepting responsibility and there's no question that they caused the damage.

I agree. And it's probably the fastest solution. They owe you for "loss of use" too. So, the faster they get it done, the better for them and you.

This is a situation that has to just make you scratch your head and wonder how this could go so bad in a Porsche shop.
It's like a Mafia hit: As soon as the timing was off after the replacement work, it was just a mater of turning the key to complete the hit.

It's easy to sit back and tell you how we might deal with this but you actually have to deal with it
I just hope the dealer continues to step up to and brings this to a resolution your happy with. The dealer isn't going to be happy and they will probably never do another 986 IMSB replacement again

Maybe one of those 718's just sitting around gather dust in their showroom will complete the deal

Best of... on this

Any chance of a sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet loaner??

I agree with others - the dealer needs to get you a Porsche re-manufactured motor.

Steel valves hitting aluminum pistons have most likely damaged the pistons, and probably the connecting rods, rod bearings, etc. Those bent valves probably have damaged the valve seats. Pulling the heads and replacing the valves is not an option. Engine should be pulled, completely disassembled, and every part pretty much checked. But a better, more timely solution would be a Porsche re-manufactured motor. You only had 30K miles on your original motor.

I'm really sorry this happened to you... hang in there, it can be fixed...

Small consolation, but they gave me a Cayenne S e-hybrid when I dropped the car off (two weeks ago). Looks as though I'll be driving it for a while.

Thanks. Trying to get an update from them today... no luck so far. Service Advisor is out today, Service Manager hasn't returned my call. :(

OK, I feel much better: had a conference call with the Service Manager and the Shop Foreman. They've committed to a total rebuild from top to bottom, inspecting and replacing everything that needs to be done. 2 year warranty. They seem sincere in wanting to make me whole on this. I'll get everything in writing. Estimating three to four weeks.

Hello kjc2050,

that sounds good to me. Fingers crossed.

Regards, Markus

Fantastic. Awful circumstances, but I'd take a free total rebuild.

3.6 while they're in there???

Don't get greedy, now. :):)

Great news and you get to drive the Cayenne in the mean time. Adult beverages for everybody. :cheers:

This is why you won't find a single dealership listed as Certified Installers of the IMS Retrofit products. Dealers are the last places that started doing these retrofits, and two years after we started selling the products, many dealers still maintained that the bearing was impossible to remove and replace.

This is way out there, and there's no telling what they actually did to create this mess. The most common issue is not checking timing first (HELLO thats part of our pre- evaluation process) and since the timing was out, it easily jumped during the procedure. They probably don;t even have the proper LN tools to lock the cams, and they are trying to use the factory tools, which increases difficulty. They may not have pulled the tensioners either.

All that said, why didn't they notice the cam timing was out before the engine was started? Its clear that they didn't, because it bent valves when it started up after the procedure.

Did the tech not check his work after completion? If he would have rolled the engine over to check cam timing, you'd not be where you are right now, and he wouldn't be looking like a fool.

Negligent techs piss me off. Please PM me the name of this dealer, and the tech. Its imperative that their accounts, and the database be updated with this bit of information, because I guarantee that if he screwed yours up, that he's done the same to others. Those might try to be turned in as warranty jobs to LN, so this is a big deal.

That said, I'd not trust anything that he did, and you better hope that he isn't the one repairing the damage/ reassembling the engine! I certainly hope that someone checked his IMS work before it went back together.

Hate to hear that this happened to you. All the "PCA members say this guy is good" talk doesn't go too far with me. Plain and simple that shop needs a QA tech thats checking cam timing before the engine is completed. Here at least 3 pair of eyes look at everything before it goes back together, and even if I am doing a job, my own employee checks MY work...(and I trained him). Thats the difference; when you treat cars like they have wings, instead of tires.

The problem had nothing to do with the IMS-B installation, per se. We had also agreed to install new chain guides, as I'd been seeing both brown plastic bits and green rubbery stuff in my oil filter. The camshaft deviation was rising steadily for Bank 1, as well. The tech made a mistake with regard to (not) rotating the crank at some point in the process. (Sorry, I do a lot of work on my car, but this stuff is beyond me, so if this is vague, it's me, not them.)

Car is back home, running absolutely perfectly. Shop foreman tore the engine down completely, replaced every part that was affected OR could have possibly been affected, including main bearings, timing chains, chain guides and ramps, etc etc etc. Here is my 30K dual row bearing:

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1468790542.jpg

A few other pics:


http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1468790580.jpg


http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1468790613.jpg


http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1468790655.jpg

Although it took a long time (~50 days), I couldn't be happier with how the dealer handled this situation and the thoroughness with which they approached dealing with the issues. The Shop Foreman was tremendous: when I went to pick up the car we met for about a half hour, along with the CS Manager, and he walked me through exactly what had happened, and everything they did as a result. It was clear he felt horrible about what happened: I managed people for decades, and my BS meter never went off; his angst was sincere.

Next step? Drive and enjoy it, and bring it back in about 600 miles for a thorough check and oil change. Oh - the IMS bearing looked fine (for what that's worth), and turns smoothly. It goes back to LN/IMS Solution tomorrow.

I wouldn't accept anything short of a complete rebuild. and the fact that these guys don't sound like they know what they are doing, i would insist on an engine replacement direct from Porsche.

My friend got for his 2003 base an LN IMS bearing, new clutch and other things, took 2 days and no problems. I guess it depends on the mechanic. BTW at the local dealer.

Happy to hear your dealer made it right.

Glad it came out well and you're good with it.