The unlucky 1%

[arthrodriver]

So the statement on youtube that ceramic balls degrade their races is perhaps marketing hype? And just out of curiosity , anyone know how the electronic monitor works? Perhaps a noise sensor. We know how loud a failing wheel bearing gets. Thanks for the feedback.

[flaps10]

If by electronic monitor you're referring to the Guardian, it's essentially a magnet with a couple of contacts close to the surface. When enough ferrous material builds up on the magnet or closes the loop and your indicator lights up.
It's basically a chip detector. It will save you from catastrophic failure but in the end you're still in for a tear down.

There was a guy in the Porsche club who did vibration analysis, as is used on machinery all the time to predict bearing failure. He was very knowledgeable and used precise equipment, and posted some impressive findings in club newsletter.

But ask around and it can't be done.

[arthrodriver]

Thanks for you all's patience in asking old, familiar questions. I looked back at the OKRASA vw hotrod crank. It had needle rollers and problems with skipping. But the Japanese now use rollers extensively. Like many things ball bearing tech is deeper than a well, and I'm sure many specialists looked at this application before and after design and changes. What about vibration pulses through the chains from the cam action? Enuf already?

Edit. I was going to shut up, but I wish an electronic engineer could chime in on the feasibiity of a noise sensor. These guys can detect a gnat's eyelash movement, why not some converter, mech to elect noise. Rhetorical I guess. Maybe a NASA sized effort.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by arthrodriver

So the statement on youtube that ceramic balls degrade their races is perhaps marketing hype? And just out of curiosity , anyone know how the electronic monitor works? Perhaps a noise sensor. We know how loud a failing wheel bearing gets. Thanks for the feedback.

The person that made that video had and axe to grind as he sells a competing product that claims the ceramic hybrid bearing is unnecessary. There are thousands of ceramic hybrids on the roads, we have dozens of customers running them, and none of them have failed or shown any signs of the supposed claims. made in that video. But you make up your own mind.

[Steve Tinker]

IIRC the vibration / noise sensoring was kicked about a few years ago when Jake Raby let out a few teasers about the Guardian before it was on the market. Everybody was trying to second guess what his new warning system consisted of, but it seems that problem with the noise sensors, there is so much background noise that it shrouds the potential problem....

[10/10ths]

.....edition this past summer. I immediately sent it to Jake Raby and Flat 6 Innovations to install their IMS Solution plain bearing.

Car runs great.

Just do it.

[particlewave]

Originally Posted by 10/10ths

.....edition this past summer. I immediately sent it to Jake Raby and Flat 6 Innovations to install their IMS Solution plain bearing.

Car runs great.

Just do it.

How much $ did that set you back?

[mikefocke]

There was a guy a few years back who did noise analysis predictive studies on industrial machines. He was going to try to apply that to the M96. He even had a write up in one of the PCA club mags. He had a notion to bring his machines to BRBS where he was going to measure many of the owners cars there to establish some norms.

But eventually it didn't pan out and nothing more was heard about it.

[arthrodriver]

It is intriquing to consider the electronic sensor. Again I believe it could be done with enough time and funding. A kind of engine saving look-up table. Hey, maybe one of the astro scientists who detect signals from space amid the clutter. So ceramic does't chip off like nickel-chrome and yet is is harder than the races a la lathe bits ? But I suppose one would have to develop different sensors for the different bearing designs also. Oh well...

OH yeah ...can't piezo crystals come to the rescue? As wear limits are exceeded at the race the piezo get squeezed and says "yikes," avoiding the noise problem?

[jdraupp]

Originally Posted by arthrodriver

It is intriquing to consider the electronic sensor. Again I believe it could be done with enough time and funding. A kind of engine saving look-up table. Hey, maybe one of the astro scientists who detect signals from space amid the clutter. So ceramic does't chip off like nickel-chrome and yet is is harder than the races a la lathe bits ? But I suppose one would have to develop different sensors for the different bearing designs also. Oh well...

OH yeah ...can't piezo crystals come to the rescue? As wear limits are exceeded at the race the piezo get squeezed and says "yikes," avoiding the noise problem?

Cost of the device and development vs cost of the ims solution which would negate the use of such a device I'd guess would be an issue...

[ksjohn]

Well, the parts have started arriving and surgery is Saturday! I am kind of looking forward to pulling the IMS and seeing how bad it is.

New bearing, clutch and RMS are on the menu. Hopefully the new oil filter and magnets will catch any remaining, free floating metal. Maybe I can get another 10K or more out of the engine.

If the engine continues to run well after 500 or 1000 miles, I plan to replace the water pump, thermostat and timing chain actuator guides.

I got the clutch from RockAuto. I think it was $284 with shipping. Luk clutch with Sachs stamps. I have had good luck with Luk clutches before. Will be checking the flywheel once we get it apart.

[arthrodriver]

I know this is beating the dead horse, but this piezo thing, aka accelerometer, keeps bugging me. There are several companies who have a range of standard products for monitoring vibration of electric motor bearings. It looks like a cousin to the knock sensor. These things are small, mount via stud or adhesive, and will live at engine temp. The signals rout via cable to a little box which is monitored for waveforms, etc. Sorry, that's the extent of my mojo, So so tap an electronic engineer- Boxter owner next time you see him and ask.

[jdraupp]

Originally Posted by arthrodriver

I know this is beating the dead horse, but this piezo thing, aka accelerometer, keeps bugging me. There are several companies who have a range of standard products for monitoring vibration of electric motor bearings. It looks like a cousin to the knock sensor. These things are small, mount via stud or adhesive, and will live at engine temp. The signals rout via cable to a little box which is monitored for waveforms, etc. Sorry, that's the extent of my mojo, So so tap an electronic engineer- Boxter owner next time you see him and ask.

Like I said though, you have to weigh the cost vs the purpose and outcome. That's the major hurdle. I'm guessing even if this bearing is wobbling to trip this sensor, you're still needing to do a complete teardown down of the engine. That's why the ims guardian makes just as much sense and is likely cheaper.

Good luck with the surgery and clutch replacement. Hope all turns out well.

[ksjohn]

OK, so what is this piece of metal from that I found in my sump????

I replaced the IMS bearing. It was worn and had shed a lot of metal particles into the engine. But the seals were intact and the ball bearings were spherical and smooth. The bearing races were intact also. (It was a real eye opener just how much metal the IMS bearing could shed and still be holding together! I found thousands of tiny steel particles inside the IMS tube. What a terrible design!)

But what had started this process were these two pieces of metal I found in my sump. I originally thought they were 2 separate, unrelated pieces from the IMS bearing. But on further inspection, I can see that they once were a single round disk that has been sheered in half. It is about 5mm across. It really looks like it has been punched out of a piece of sheet metal as the edges on one side are smooth and on the other there is a ridge.

So where would something like this come from inside the engine.

Thanks for the help

[rexcramer]

Is it part of the cage/keeper that captures the balls between the races?

[ksjohn]

Nope.

Meant to include that. Both cages were intact and holding 8 bearings each in place.

[linderpat]

It doesn't sound like your engine is going to last for very long, based on your statement of all the debris you found. Did you do a full tear down?

[arthrodriver]

Your piece doesn't look like it, but someone (flaps10?)found a foil seal , apparently from some bottled product inside his engine during teardown. There is a piicture of it somewhere here.

[arthrodriver]

JFP, Thanks for the explanation and drawing.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by ksjohn

Apparently I am one of the unlucky 1%! My cheap 99 boxster has a bad IMS. I am not overly surprised or upset, at least fixing it will remove that big unknown.

I drained the oil and dropped the sump. See the attached picture of debris I found in the sump. Most of it is plastic but there were 2 metal pieces large enough to pick out. They appear to be part of a ball bearing, about 4.8 mm long, ferrous.

Showed the picture to a Porsche mechanic. He said, "That is IMS debris, don't start the engine until it is fixed!"

I will be ordering the bearing, RMS and clutch in the next few days. A friend and I will do the repair........

You must approach with care. At this point the tiniest of debris has become suspended in the engine's oil and has been circulating through the engine for some time, damaging other components (no, the filter barely helps keep this from happening!).

LN Engineering products, as well as the IMS Solution require an engine be pre- evaluated before being fitted with any IMS product. An engine at Stage 4 failure is not considered a preventative repair, and should not pass the pre- evaluation.

Review this directive concerning IMS Bearings that are being retrofitted, but are already failing.
Bearing already failing? | IMS Retrofit