Discussion about a Boxster being an "investment"
 

Hi all,

First off, I wanted to introduce myself. I am new to the forums. My name is Andy. I have been a car-guy my whole like. I was 9 when my dad bought his new 1986 Honda Accord and it's the car that got me into cars. Obviously, I am a Honda guy at heart. I love all cars though. My username is because of my old 1992 Prelude Si 4WS with a JDM VTEC swap in it. To date, the most enjoyable car to drive and own to-date that I've owned.

I currently have 4 cars. 2 projects cars -1989 240SX hatchback with an SR20DET engine swap with basic bolt-ons and a Garrett GT2560R turbo and a 1997 BMW M3 coupe with minor bolt-ons. My daily driver is a 1997 Honda Accord LX station wagon with 275K miles. I installed several OEM Prelude upgrades as well as a 2.3L SOHC VTEC Honda Accord F23A engine from the 1998-2001 chassis. Planning to do some minor suspension upgrades and possibly a 220HP Euro R Accord H22 swap with LSD trans soon. Finally, I still have the first car I bought brand new. A 2001 BMW 325ci automatic. Completely stock with OEM 18" wheels from a 2009 335i. Never driven in the snow and rarely in the rain. Fantastic shape.

Ok, with that out of the way, I have somewhat of a weird question for you. As you can see based on the cars I drive, I like cars from the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's. I am a little older now and have decided, even though I can afford ~$100K car, I prefer to buy older cars. There's just something about the older more raw cars from that time. I don't enjoy the driver-assisted cars of today. In fact, I think my attitude towards new cars is widely shared and is growing in popularity. I think the trend we will see is car-guys will likely still buy new cars, but they will also look to own an older car as their "fun car"/weekend car.

A little background on what I do with cars. I have been buying up older cars, fixing them, keeping them as close to stock, but mainly focusing my efforts on refreshing the car and bringing them up-to-date on the maintenance. The emphasis is on making the car better than when it came from the factory. Like with my 240SX. I bought a clean chassis that had a blown engine. I planned on swapping out the engine. I did the fewest modifications to make more power, but still be as reliable as possible. The rest of the money went towards refreshing the suspension with as many OEM/300ZX OEM upgrades/Nismo parts as possible. Things like shocks and springs are aftermarket, as well as exhaust, strut tower bars, anti-swaybars and wheels. The end goal of my cars are to be a car that enthusiasts want to buy since most older cars are hacked up and pieced together with aftermarket parts without any attention to normal maintenance.

My three used cars have proven to be good investments. I can sell my 240SX, M3, and Accord wagon for as much as I have put into them, if not more. I bought all 3 when the market for them hit rock-bottom. Bought my 240SX for $750 12 years ago, M3 for $4K 4 years ago, and my wagon for $2500 4 years ago. I think as time marches on, they will continue to go up in value as clean cars from that era will become harder and harder to find, especially in good condition.

This thought process has led me to here. I planned on adding a 1987+ 928 and a 1987-1989 944 to my collection and do the same thing to them a few years ago when they were selling for next to nothing. I missed out on those two cars. I noticed the Boxster has hit the bottom. I never really cared for the Boxster because I preferred the S2000. I think the 986 Boxster is an under-rated car - then and now. I feel this car will become more desired as the years pass by, mainly because they will become rare since many are blowing engines at an alarming rate.

So my question is, do you guys think the 986 would be a good car to do what I have done to my other cars? Pick up a roller for around $2500, focus the money on making the engine reliable (seriously considering a rebuilt and upgraded 2.9L from a company like Raby). Can you see a 986 with all of the engine issues resolved, everything works, and is well-taken care of selling for around $20K in the next 5-7 years? I can see that happening.

Your thoughts?

I say no! If it's a Box "S" with 3.6L+, Yes. My 1st new ca was a 1986 Prelude SI. Why don't I ever see a Prelude in SoCA??

Welcome to the forum. It can be fun to do the Wheeler Dealer imitation. I dabble in that mode during the winter months when I can't golf.

There's one minor problem with your Porsche plan. While values of early Boxsters have dropped into the sub-$10 range and around $3-4K for a roller, prices on parts have not dropped. High market Euro car makers charge a fortune for their parts, as much as 4x the cost of Japanese equivalent parts. You can run up a pretty big bill replacing bushings, control arms, struts, etc. And an engine from a place named Raby starts at $10K and goes up depending on what you want from the engine. Let me say a Raby engine is worth it if you need a replacement, but it's not inexpensive. You can quickly end up investing $15-20K all in. You won't be able to sell one for that because someone else has one for 1/2 that price and a potential customer won't understand how perfect yours is compared to the beater.

Early Boxsters are ending up being salvaged with very little damage because the price of new parts to fix them is more than they're worth. People are starting to buy them and fix them with used parts and staying above water but you have to be careful of hidden damage. There will be more and more lightly damaged cars on the mkt because of the cost to repair.

Good luck with your plans.

Plus, when a new engine costs 2x the value of the car, it's easy to get upside down on these very quickly...

We all go to bed praying that our IMSB will stay together for one more day :-)

The car is a mass produced depreciating asset, not an investment. Just on the numbers produced, your concept is flawed. Add in that you intend to put a lot of money into the car, be fully prepared that you won't get it all back, much less profit.

Unfortunately, to a lot of the world.....it's JUST a Porsche. It just isn't exotic enough to ever be an investment. (specifically referring to the Boxster). No more than a BMW Z4 will be or any Mazda Miata's will be.....

Doesn't have the cache of a Ferrari or Lamborghini or other high end exotics.

Which for me is alright. Just means as they age, they will depreciate, and I can pick up a 'newer' one ever few years to keep relatively current.

Welcome and its always great to have another car guy join the 986Forum!

You didn't miss anything. I bought an '88 944 Turbo three years ago for $9K. I gave it to my son and we've put another $10K into it. Its now worth $14K. He's holding onto it because he loves it - I don't see any financial upside within 10 years.

No. Not unless you love the car and plan to keep it. Selling it and getting back out what you put it will be a challenge and not likely to happen.

No. Not even in 20 years.

Far too many Boxster's were built so there is no rarity factor. The parts are very expensive. There are a lot of things that go wrong and need expensive repairs. A Raby engine rebuild is $15,000 and very few people will be willing to pay a premium for it on resale. The bottom line is that you are highly unlikely to never get your money back.

The best advice that I can give you is to find the best 78-83 911SC that you can find for under $25K. This is a car that you will have good odds of returning what you put in (or more) in 3-5 years.

I remember in the late 1980's when 914s were under $1000. There were plenty of them out there and nobody except the hardcore 914 folks ever thought they'd be worth anything. This year the "Poor Man's Porsche" was honored at the Amelia Island concours. Try finding a driving 914 for $1000 now!
The 986 (and 996) will eventually appreciate, but it won't be for a while. Compared to current cars with extensive computer assisted driver aids, they are pretty raw and minimalist, but they are not clumsy the was even earlier cars can be. The niche for our cars will emerge, but it will take some time.
One last note... You can bet there are collectors who have hidden away 986/996s with only delivery miles. A driven/restored car will never compete with that.

I don't think they'll skyrocket any time soon, but I am somewhat pleased that '99 986's with similar or even higher mileage than mine are now selling for about the same or more than I paid for mine 4.5 years ago.

I paid $10k in 2011. A '99 now can go for as much as $9-$11k in my area after hitting a low of $6-$7k a year or two ago.
Definitely not an investment in $, but a great investment in fun! ;)

I think they will eventually appreciate like the 914. The early s cars are hot rods, that were really a lot different than the base performance wise. I don't think the base needed any legitimacy but the s definitely helped the boxster reputation. They do have a few electricAl gizmos I do not like but otherwise, they are DIY friendly from what I have read which will also make them attractive. The ims issue will become a thing of the past much like big the issues with certain 911 years. The 986 also started the mid engine craze which seems to be a growing trend which I think people will notice. If 928s can go up in value, why can't the 986? Out perform, just as visually beautiful and easier to work on. Not sure I will keep mine until that day (college) but I bet I will wish I had.

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1451537187.jpg

Here is an estimate of the survival rate of cars. So the oldest of these cars are about 18 years. Less than 10% survive to 30 years. So in 12 years the supply will be very limited as about 70-80% of the current first generation will go to the dust bin.

Don't think a survival rate curve applies to Porches. Isn't it some inconceivably large percentage of all Porches ever made still being on road today?

Interesting debate though. Good points for both sides. Time will tell. First it was air cooled as being the craze, but now the turbocharging of newer Porsches and the Boxster going I4 could very well move things into the 986's favor. I agree with the point that mid engine is emerging as the ubiquitous supercar recipe and that should shine a light on the Boxster as well.

Unless one is buying a car to shelve though, as has been mentioned, the black hole of parts and repairs will be a formidable force in undermining the economics towards profit. Even if you were to beat the odds and do planned maintenance only that cost alone plus the diminishing impact from miles on the chassis will add up. And if you don't drive it frequently the ticking sound in your head gets louder... you know the IMS demon on your shoulder that reminds you of the time bomb in your garage that needs to be driven frequently but not frequently enough that you mile the car up and eat up your profit potential. Bit of a catch 22.

Porsches die just like every car. The only reason there are so many surviving as compared to made is because they are growing the number made each year so fast. On the other hand the large companies are shrinking or not growing that fast.

Further the 986 will die at a faster rate because of the lower resale price. People won't want to fix these cars because it costs more to fix them than just buying another one used and letting that one die too. Also they will be used up as racing vehicles and from people putting on high mileage because they are priced cheaper. People are less likely to hold them as "investments" and not drive them given the low price they are going for.

And if you believe the IMS issue then they are dying off at a higher rate as well. Time itself also kills the car by the break down of plastics, corrosion etc. - you don't even have to drive it.

Put all this together and the 986 is likely dying off at the rate of the low MPG cars in the graph or maybe even faster. But definitely faster than a 996 given its higher price. How many people are going to spend 5-10k fixing a dead engine on a 10k car vs a 996 costing the same 5-10k to fix but the car worth 20-25k. Also the 996 likely has fewer miles on it because people just parked it.

I've tried to estimate by resale rates how many of the original cars survive and my guesstimate is on the order of 50%. That's a very rough figure.

When I buy any car is to have fun and drive it.

When I need to make money I buy and sell stocks.

I make money so I can have more cars.

Not that complicated right???

The only thing I would add to this is buying and selling property to make money, the rest is my philosophy as well. If you are going to buy a 986 as a potential investment then buy one that is all stock and don't make any mods to it. If they ever do become collectible the collectors will not pay top dollar for a modified car if they are interested at all. There is a money manager in Marin, CA that owns 13 low mileage all stock Boxsters and is buying as many as he can get his hands on. He believes the early 986's will be collectible some day. Is he right or is he crazy? Only time will tell.:cheers:

Well,
 

As Mark Twain said, there are 3 types of liars - liars, damn liars and statisticians.

Whenever I hear one of the car companies - Subaru, Volvo, Land Rover, etc., advertise that X% of their cars built in the last Y years are still on the road, I wonder what the numbers are by year. Because likely 85% of their cars were built in the last 5 years and 85% of those cars are still on the road. Making the % of cars older than 5 years that are still on the road largely irrelevant.

Some of us are old enough to have been around when one of those Ferraris that now sell for millions or more could be had for $25,000 or even less. And we didn't have the money then, because that was a lot of money then!

Some day there will be some Boxsters that are worth some big money. But it will be hard for anyone to be making money on those Boxsters whatever the price ultimately is. The others are right who say buy it to enjoy and don't look at it as an investment.

Lots of people using the 914 as a benchmark to say the 986 will eventually go up. Can someone explain the logic there? Just cause one car has SLIGHTLY gone up (still eons away from being a 'collector' - how does that in any way affect the Boxster?
Totally different car.....totally different mindset and most importantly - they only made around what, 100,000 914 whereas the Boxster has been produced in the 100s of thousands and still going.

One can never say never, but seriously....the Boxster is not a classic. No one cool has ever died in it. It's still viewed as a hairdressers car. It doesn't have the cachet of a real sports car. We all know the comments around "Couldn't afford a real Porsche".

So relax, drive it and enjoy. Who cares what others think. No way this car ever becomes a 'classic' and an investment.

Sure, it might retain SOME value and depreciation will level off - but that's very different from appreciating and growing in value.

Hate being the one to break this to you but according to Porsche the '97-04 986 is a Classic.
Porsche Classic - Information about your Porsche vintage car - Porsche Cars North America
One can argue all they want over the validity but to Porsche they are and that's all that counts to the owners.:cheers:

I think you need to define for yourself what the word collectible means....
 

Will the boxster ever skyrocket in price like the aircooled 911's have recently? Probably not, but there will come a point where prices will level off and cars in good shape with good mileage may start to rise in value. 944's were at one time one of the most common porsches on the road and we are already starting to see a slight uptick in prices over the past few years for good examples and the same goes for many 70- 80's model cars that were regarded as just "old cars" (early M3's and 3 series, z cars, camaro/TA's, etc.) a few years ago. You just have to wait for enough of them to be written off over the years and the generation that grew up wanting to own one as a kid to have the disposable income and the desire to regain a piece of their childhood. I think if you are wanting to see a 2-3x increase in your investment, you are going to be disappointed, but there will be a point where the values start to rise, even if ever so slowly. As far as buying a roller and putting a Raby engine in it...You would have 20k in a car people would not likely pay over 10k for. The Raby engine is probably great, but no one is going to pay the premium for it. Lastly, not to sound like a jerk, but is there really a demand for honda accord wagons? Is it the japanese nomad:o?

As a hobby I have bought, worked on, and sold cars. Lots of Hondas: Del Sols, CR-Vs, CRX, Civic, and a couple V6 Accords. My goal has been to have it pay for itself. With the Hondas, I learned a lot and made enough to collect some tools and still come out a few hundred to a thousand dollars ahead on each sold or parted & scrapped car.

I now have four Boxsters and a parts car. The parts car provided me with a decent 2.7L engine, and already paid for itself in other parts sold and reused. The four driving Boxsters are currently worth about what I have spent on them considering maintenance, repair, and administrative costs. I can expect to spend $1,500 a year on (mostly) DIY maintenance on each car every year. In the 5-7 year time frame that is $7,500 to $10,500 each. My chances of selling for a profit do not look good.

The other day as I walked out of my house and saw three (covered) in the driveway and one in the garage I thought, "If I sold all of these, I could buy a really nice car!" Then I climbed in, put the top down and went for a drive through the twistys. :D

I do not see the 986 as an investment, considering the maintenance costs it would be the worst investment I have ever made. If you are buying a mass produced car as an investment you really need to reconsider. That said, I do see 986 prices stabilizing and even rising.

I would say 986 prices bottomed a few years ago, and have been climbing very, very, very slowly since. I think this is likely because as the original and 2nd owners have unloaded them in the sub-$10k range, the buyers in the sub-$10k range are balking when hit with the high maintenance costs (which is completely reasonable when you compare the maintenance cost to the value of the car). This leads to a lot of 986's being taken off the road, which thins the supply, pushing prices up, very, very slowly.

This is nothing new, and happens to almost all Porsches at some point. Just look at the used 911 market over the last several years. Or the 944, or the 914 over the last 30 years. If you still have a good condition, low mileage 986 in 30 years it might be worth something, but you will have probably spent five times the profit on maintenance by then. :cheers:


@ Luv2Box, all Porsches get classified as 'classic' after a certain number of years. It just means the price of spare parts goes up, as they produce smaller batches less often.

It sounds to me like you're trying to keep up a hobby you enjoy while making a little money or at a minimum hit BEP (break even point), all without putting out a great sum of money before you sell the car.

If that's your plan I would say it will NOT work with water cooled Porsches. The cars that can most insure you get your money back, air cooled, are expensive to buy now because of their limited availability, so right off the bat before you've bought a single spark plug you've committed a great deal of money. The costs to restore the car can easily mushroom out of control. And the buyers will not pay top dollar unless the car is worked on by someone with a great deal of experience with Porsche.

Meanwhile, the problem with the water cooled cars is that people who can afford to maintain and repair these cars are not generally interested in keeping them long term, they dump them to buy a new car. And the people who will buy an old sports car by and large are skittish about German luxury brands. So you're catering to a very small pool of buyers who will all drive a hard bargain. If your costs get out of control you'll be lucky to sell at a profit.

I think your current plan is better, stick with popular Japanese cars. These have more buyers, and those buyers see these cars as daily drivers and scratch the sports car itch.
If you like a 928 or 944 it's good that your handy because eventually the only people driving these cars will be DIY'ers because of the costs of parts and labor will be too high for most. As far as the 986/987 and 996/997, their futures are a bit uncertain. High mileage examples will need costly engine work to address lifters, IMS/clutch, water pump, AOS, etc., the costs of these in parts can easily exceed the value of the cars, definitely once you add in suspension overhaul. Sure you can buy a roller and drop in a low mileage donor engine but that's going to scare off many prospective buyers who, as Warren Buffett would say, generally avoid buying what they don't understand, unless it involves home mortgages.

Yeah, don't own a Porsche because you're trying to invest. That only worked for guys who bought 356s in the 70s and stored them or early 911s in the 80s. Your best bet for an investment Porsche would be a mid 70s air cooled 911sc. Those are about at the bottom of the air cooled bubble and if you can get one in good shape sub 20k you'll see that back in a few years. Boxsters? No way. I don't see the 944 appreciating and those are way older than the boxster. The only 928 that will maybe appreciate is a 5 speed car you get dirt cheap or the later gts.

"@ Luv2Box, all Porsches get classified as 'classic' after a certain number of years. It just means the price of spare parts goes up, as they produce smaller batches less often."
Actually it means more than that. As long as Porsche is in business parts will be available either from Porsche or third parties. Porsche parts are expensive now and the argument about price can always be made but the reality is they will be available. If an owner doesn't want to spend the money on genuine parts then at least third party, sometimes at a cheaper rate, will also be available and many times they are from the same supplier of genuine parts. The point is we can keep our cars running in one way or another.
As a Porsche classic some future purchaser of an early 986 can send the car to Porsche for a complete restoration. I know that sounds crazy now but who knows what will take place in the future as interests change.
If I had the money to buy what I think is an underpriced Porsche model destined to go up in price I'd put my money in a 996 turbo. One of the best motors ever made by Porsche and currently dirt cheap compared to other turbo models. They are ignored by the air cooled frenzy and the fact they look too much like a Boxster in the front, have cheaper interiors (full leather is the preferred) and are reviled by the hard core 911 group makes them a solid buy.

You might want to check what some of them are selling for
 

Because the early water cooled cars are certainly rising in value, in particular the turbo's, 968, and any 928 with a stick, granted they are not rising like the 911 SC's did a few years back but they are rising. Equal mileage 944 S2 and turbos will bring the same if not more than a boxster of similar condition and mileage. I routinely see boxsters on CL in my general area for 5-7k

Hate to break it to you....but a 'classic' is not a 'collectible'. Classic simply refers to the time it's been around and designates the brand will continue to produce parts. Has nothing to do with value or an Investment.

So even to Porsche - they are not a Collectible.

Wasn't saying it was a collectible or an investment, I was referring to this statement of yours.
" No way this car ever becomes a 'classic' and an investment."

Gotcha....my mistake. I misspoke when I used the term Classic earlier on.

This is absolutely correct. Four out of every five Porsche-only independent shops that I contact won't even touch my son's 944 Turbo. None of their tech's known anything about trouble-shooting a pre-OBDII car, the parts are very hard to find, and the repair expense is almost always unjustified based on the low value of the car.

It seems we've scared PG off or he's inwardly digesting our 28 pearls of wisdom.

Well, you may be interested in these North America sales figures from Wikipedia ...

2003
911 9,935
Boxster 6,432
Cayenne 13,661

2004
911 10,227
Boxster 3,728
Cayenne 19,134

2005
911 10,653
Boxster 8,327
Cayenne 14, 524

Don't care much about Cayennes, but still today Porsche continues to sell more 911s than Cayman/Boxster combined.

Bottom line is I wouldn't reference the "large quantities" of Boxsters so loudly.

But, given that the 911 has outsold the Boxster, the more popular model may indeed hold its value better in the long run.

Nobody in the real world calls the Boxster a hairdressers' car and in fact it's without question a really real Porsche. Sharing components with the 911 is better than sharing a whole platform or an engine with a VW/Audi I think.

I'd easily wager Boxsters will hold more value than an SLK Mercedes or a BMW Z, as it's the Porsche experience and feel that neither of those has. Neither of those has anything like the charisma, and of course anything Oriental is a writeoff and hardly worth mentioning. As I write this, qualityporscheparts on eBay has a 2004 4.5 l Turbo Cayman V8 and a 2000 Boxster S engine, both with over 100K miles and both priced at $3K.

Yes, lots of Boxsters will likely go away due to "expensive parts," but this is false economy IMHO. It's an expensive, low volume car, and from Germany where nothing's cheap ... and the pricing seems fairly realistic given the real world economic facts. How can you realistically expect anything different? Parts prices have zero relationship to used car lot prices in any event ... but lots of guys with stars in their eyes may think so.

And hey, they have six cylinders and you can't get that anymore.

I was at a car restoration and brokerage service a few days ago. I was surprised at how low the prices were for what looked to me like very well finished restorations. And I got to thinking that we all want the cars we couldn't have when we were 15. But that means that as folks age, they become able to afford those toys and demand drives up prices. But the next generation may not have the same memories of that particular car and the prices can drop. Looking at the cars earlier than the '60s I saw that and even some of the '60s cars were asking nothing like the Barret-Jackson prices.

Buy a $2500 roller and put a Raby engine in? Only if you love the car and intend to drive it forever. Price one of those engines! You'll not be getting half that in the next 10 years because there are thousands for unmodified cars for sale competing with you every month. And only 10% of buyers will value the specific upgrades like you did. I think you'll be lucky to get what a roller and a stock engine out of a wreck would cost.

Good luck whatever you do.

They are great cars.