Battery/Alternator issue potentially? Please help
 

Hi,

I went on my first drive to meet another fellow forum brother this morning and we were checking each others cars out and talking, went around the parking lot to show him how it drives and it was all going well.

We decided to leave the parking lot and go for a drive on the streets when while coming out of the lot, I stalled it accidentally. Then quickly tried to restart it and to my surprise, it would not start. Pulled over and suspected a dead battery. Had to put the car in Neutral and push it back into the parking lot. Fortunately, there was a mechanic shop right across the street so we went over and asked to borrow a booster and/or cables. He was happy to help and brought it by. While plugging it in, he accidentally plugged it in backwards(not entirely his fault, my battery has a red cap by the negative terminal and its easy to be fooled) Of course, what was our fault was not ensuring that the red was the positive indeed. Anyways, there was a big spark and he immediately pulled it. Then we carefully looked at the battery and realized the error. We plugged it in straight and the car started right up, no error codes.

On we go, drove for a while and pulled over and it wouldn't start again. Saw a passing tow truck and he was kind enough to pull over and give me a jump again. Started right up again. Knew something was wrong. Decided to go to auto zone, took out the battery and plugged it into their automatic charger/tester, it said the battery was bad. Bought a new battery and installed it in the car and the car started right up. Measured the voltage across the terminals and it was only 12.03 with the car running. That is always how I have tested the alternator.

There is a red tab in the fusebox with the battery symbol on it. I had pushed it in before the first mechanic jumped it. Don't know if that matters.

Interestingly, most of everything works on the car, it does the checks and everything just fine. Just two things I notice - the one touch function for the windows won't work and the stereo does not come on at all anymore -(may be a fuse?).

Here are the questions running through my head:

1. Was my alternator already shot when I bought the car and it started up 5-6 times just because the battery had enough juice? When I brought the car home, the time was not set and the car did ask for radio code.

2. Is my alternator shot because we accidentally interchanged the positive and negative terminals while boosting?

3. Was my battery shot because we accidentally interchanged the positive and negative terminals while boosting?

4. Does the Red button have anything to do with anything? I know what that is for, but does the in or out position on that matter at all? I am thinking when you pull it out, it disconnects the battery from the charging system or something?

5. Does the Boxster (2001) have a main fuse that blows and protects the car(ECU and Electrical system) in case something does happen like it did with me?


Sorry for the long blurb but I wanted to provide exact details so the experts here could give me some advice. Any help would be appreciated. I am just bummed out that my first drive was so eventful.

Thanks

These cars, like most with lots of electronics in them, to not take well to reversed polarity (hooking the battery up backwards). While nearly everything is fused, the fuse expects the current to come from the positive side, not the negative or ground side, so when the current is following backwards, the fuse blows only after the electronics have been hit first.

You need to start by having the alternator checked out, you may have fried the voltage regulator in it, along with some fuses in the car.

Thanks for the quick reply. I am wondering if it was already shot when I got it.

The car starts up fine and it does all the checks (lights come on and go off) and the top goes down and up, so is it safe to assume the ECU is ok as are most fuses? Maybe the radio has another fuse behind the head unit that could have blown?

I bought it on a Saturday and started it twice or thrice at the dealer and then drove it home a 100 miles. Drove it once the next day on Sunday about 50 miles, then it sat in the garage for a week and started and drove it today about 20 miles and started one more time in the parking lot before it died. So all in all, maybe a maximum of 5 starts. Is that possible from a fully charged battery? All of the above with the AC and the stereo running and maybe put the top down and back up 5 times total. I am thinking i may not have even known the alternator was already shot? Or does that sound like too much for a battery to support with a bad alternator?

Thanks.

With only 12.03 volts running, the alternator is not charging the battery, so something is gone there, most likely the voltage regulator. If the car still runs without codes, the DME is probably fine.

I agree that the alternator should be checked (probably a bad voltage regulator).

However, electricity does not work that way, JFP.
Electrons have a negative charge, thus they are attracted to the positive "holes" of the positive terminal. In a DC circuit, electrons flow from negative to positive (electrons are pushed away from the negative terminal because likes repel, and attracted to the positive terminal because opposites attract).
However, the direction of current flow in any part of a given circuit is unknown and only theoretical. You can calculate the net charge of a complete circuit, but the actual directional flow of current within the circuit is completely unknown. Any electronics engineer knows this ;)

That said, electronic circuits are designed with the flow of negative to positive in mind, so reversing the polarity can and will damage things.

1) possibly

2) very likely

3) less you had a hook up that way for a long time, no.

4) I believe you are referring to the gym points in order to pop the funk in the case of a dead battery...?

Check all of your fuses.

i was with amit when this unfortunate incident happened. What boggles me is that after the stall the car would not start at all....I mean in what scenario does that happen?

So by searching the amazing interweb, I found a couple answers - as far as the one touch function for the windows, they need to be retrained apparently:

Retraining the window:

1. hold the up button until the window is up and then for ten seconds
2. hold the down button until the window is down and then 10 seconds

unless you changed the motor...
Standardising the new power window motor
1. Switch on ignition.
2. Open door window completely by continuously actuating the power window operating button, and then close window. Press power window button until the window is closed and is switched off by the blockage detection function of the power window motor. Standardisation is then completed.

As far as the stereo not coming on, I will have to pull it out and check the fuse behind the head unit. Hopefully that will fix it. These are the only two symptoms I am seeing in the car after the mishap. No CEL, no other lights, all the diagnostics at start up seem fine. I hope nothing else went wrong with any symptoms that I can't see.

I may attempt trying to remove the alternator and replace the reglator myself thanks to pelican parts and buy whatever parts I need from them.

Thanks for all the replies

I heard you should always turn on numerous accessories such as headlights and blower fan to draw potential voltage spikes away from the DME whenever boosting a battery. And may I suggest you paint a + and _ symbol on your contact points....

Wish you happy Boxstering days ahead:cheers:

You will note that my quote says "current" flow; to wit, according to multiple published works on the subject:

"When electricity was discovered, nobody knew how it works and electrons were unknown. So the scientists just defined one of the poles as "positive" and said that the current is flowing from positive to negative. That still is the definition of an electrical current's flow direction. However, later scientists discovered that in most (but not all) materials current is carried by negatively charged electrons, which travel from negative to positive. The electron flow is thus opposite to the current flow."

Current flow is what does the damage in a DC circuit, and with the battery reversed is was flowing backwards from the ground, into the electronics, and then to the fuse; so by the time a fuse would blow, the damage was already done.

And I'll bet you are still smarting from Loren telling you to go sit down..........................

Sorry about that threadjack, OP. :D
I'd be glad to help you diagnose any electrical problems that you may have. Just PM me because I'm not going to have a juvenile argument with that guy, haha!

Because you constantly lose..................you are talking about electron flow, I am referring to current flow; they are backwards from each other.

And the quote of from a paper by Frank Berauer, Technology Transfer Engineer, Microelectronics if you want to look it up.

One cannot argue with ignorance ;)
I design and build electronic circuits for a living, my friend.

bump for amit

So its a bad alternator - likely the voltage regulator. Can the voltage regulator be repaired (for when mine pulls this trick)? What is involved with repairing it if it can be repaired?

Thanks dbansal for the bump.:cheers: :cheers:

Here is what I have decided to do:

I ordered a new Voltage Regulator from Pelican Parts ($37.50 as of this writing). The part should be here by Friday, just in time before the weekend.

They have a great article on alternator replacement at Pelican parts that I will follow to extract the alternator from the vehicle and take it to my local Advanced Auto Parts to see if they can test it with the existing regulator. If it fails and it is indeed the voltage regulator(I hope they will be able to tell me this?), I will switch it to the new Voltage regulator and take it back again for a test just to be sure. If it passes, then I will proceed to install the alternator with the new regulator back in the car and test it for work-ability. If not, then I will purchase a new/rebuilt alternator and install that in the vehicle and test it. I hope there isn't anything else that I am not seeing/understanding.

If anyone has done it and can provide me with any tips and/or stories from their experience that can benefit me, please post up, I would really appreciate that.

Thanks again,
Amit

Check on the price for an autozone duralast alternator. I've used those for different vehicles on several occasions with excellent results and they are inexpensive. No Porsche tax.

Something that will help you remove and install the alternator... Use a little penetrating oil on the bolt and bracket surfaces, it will make it easier to slide the alternator out and back into place.

I bought a lifetime warranty alternator for my wife's Touareg at Orieley's for 1/3 VW price. Exact same frame down to every marking. Obviously factory alt but rebuilt.

So here is an update: I spent the day today taking out the alternator and took it to pepboys and they put it on their testing machine and it tested out good - diodes, regulator and rectifier. They said there was nothing wrong with my alternator. I came back and put it all back together hoping that maybe it was a loose connection. The car started right up and I checked the voltage across the battery terminals and the charging system is still coming up bad. Does anyone have any idea of what else could be wrong? :-(

Consider the source for your test....
You have a bad alternator, again, most likely the VR. Replace the VR and report back. I'll bet you'll be good to go.

What was the voltage reading?

dghii,

So you are thinking that even though the alternator and regulator passed the tests at the local pepboys with flying colors, that could be the case? Their tests are not always accurate?

Jager,
I bought one of those battery/charging system testers from the auto parts store and with the car running on idle when I clamp the positive and negative, it comes up to around 13.4 or so(which is labeled in red on th meter. Green is above 14V). There is a load button on the tester also, when I push that, it drops to 12 V(slightly above maybe). Does that make sense?

I will post pictures when I get home tonight so it's clearer if I'm not able to explain it correctly.

Yes it does make sense, the voltage is a little low. What are your results when you connect your tester (-) side to the chassis (ground point) and (+) to the positive side of the battery and perform a load test?

So I did some more comprehensive tests and here are the results:

Battery Voltage with car sitting overnight: 12.2 V (seems slightly low but it is a brand new battery and the car hasn’t been taken out in over 2 weeks)
Battery Voltage when car starts up: 13.6-13.8V (Last night it was 13.6 and this morning it came up and showed 13.8 V actually)
Battery Voltage when the car has been running for a few minutes on idle: 13.6 V
Battery Voltage when headlights and blower are turned on: 13.4 V

Never went over 14V in my testing but do you think that if I drive it around a little and charge the battery more, it will? Or jut rev higher? If I had another person looking at it, it would be easier.

Interesting Observation: Not sure if this is normal, but I hear a slight hum from the front left side I suppose with the car turned off even and it goes away when I disconnect the battery. Is that normal?

I was not able to do the load test you asked for Jager because I was not sure what you really meant:

Turn the car on and hit the load button on tester with the (-)ve connected to chasis?
Or
Turn the car on and load using headlights and blower on with (-)ve connected to chasis?
Or
Leave the car off and do either of the above?

Thanks for all the support. What a great community. I hope that I can be of help to someone else in the future as well.

Amit

I should add one more thing- after the car runs for a few minutes and I shut it off, the battery reads at 12.6 V(which seems ideal).

Does that mean my battery is charging? Does that mean my meter is not the most accurate?

This piques my interest.

Yeah exactly, I just heard it this morning.

If I just walk up to the car, and put my ear against the front left without the key in the ignition even, there is a very very light humming noise. I wonder if that is the reason my battery drained in the first place and I wonder if that is why after sitting overnight, my voltage is at 12.2V instead of the 12.6 V after running the car for a bit.

Has anyone ever put a ear to their bonnet close to the battery? It would have to be in a quiet garage to hear the light hum.

Amit

I'm certainly no expert as I have my own issues that remain unsolved. A relatively easy thing to check may be the alarm horn on the right side of the battery when looking from the front. Maybe try unplugging it and seeing if the noise continues. I can't think of anything else that runs while the key is off.

It's probably not the cause, but it should take under 2 minutes to check.

Yes, turn the car on and hit the load button on tester with the (-) connected to chassis.

Jäger,

Did as you suggested. All tests with (-) connected to chasis. Here are the results:
Battery Voltage with car sitting overnight: 12.2v
Battery Voltage when car is started up: 13.8V(hovers between 13.7V and 13.8 V now)
Battery Voltage when load button is pressed: 12V

Car has not been driven in two weeks and I leave the terminals disconnected for fear of discharge, except the last 2 days when I have been doing these tests.

Thanks

I did not get a chance to look at this last night since I got home a little late after cheering on Team USA against Belgium(FIFA World Cup). Unfortunately, we lost the match last night but I must commend the strong fight we put up.

I did put my ear against that area and it seems like it is from that vicinity. I will have to remove the panels and maybe disconnect the alarm horn to confirm.

Amit

This just verified the (-) cable connection to your battery seems to be OK (corrosion problem area).
What is the voltage across the battery, motor running at idle, when you have all accessories (lights, radio (is it working?), AC, fan) turned-on?. As JFP mentioned earlier, it should not drop to 12.03 volts, that is an indication the alternator is bad. Did Pep Boys perform a load test on it?

I see. From my earlier test yesterday, Battery Voltage when headlights and blower are turned on: 13.4 V. Radio is not working since my battery first died and I got a jump.

I took the alternator outside the vehicle to pepboys and they just popped it in the machine in the back and did a test, they didn't really tell me what test but it sounded like basic functionality.

I will take it back to them installed in the car now and ask them to do a load test.

You are performing a load test by turning-on all the electrical accessories and measuring the voltage across the battery terminals. At 13.4V your battery is still getting charged.

I just thought of something... Does it change (drop) when the RPMs are increased??

Jager,

I just ended up taking it to a mechanic for inspection. He looked over it and his meter gave him a 14.2 V reading. Not sure what is going on but he said he does not really see any problems. I brought it home and figured I would give it a few days to see if it surfaces.

Meanwhile, since my radio keys arrived, I yanked the head unit out and sure enough, the fuse was bad, replaced it and all works well again.

I guess what killed my battery the first time will remain a mystery.. unless it happens again, at which point, I will do a full electrical systems test to rule out any other electrical problems.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. If I can ever help with a similar problem, please send me a PM. Thanks.

Jager, what would it mean if the voltage dropped when load testing and increasing RPM?
Thanks

I have seen alternators on GM cars that had proper voltage at idle but the voltage would drop when RPM's increased... Bad alternator.

Figure out that hum?