Downshifting to First Gear q - new boxster owner
 

Hi,

New Porsche owner here, I have a 2003 Boxster S.

Been a long time since I drove stick. My first few cars were stick so I have experience. Anyhow my question is how many people actually downshift from second to first gear when stopping? I seem to find myself in slowing traffic, braking, shifting down and based on stopping speed going from second gear right to neutral. If I hit first it's either for a millisecond and not worth it, or at enough rpms to be too soon causing me to slow more than I want.

Is it bad to drop from second to neutral? I have searched these forums for info about cruising rpms etc too and read several good threads about this and lugging and IMS etc... I am not looking to start a whole other topic about that..I think I got the info I needed about that... But I am really curious about downshifting to first....especially In stop and go traffic.

Thanks!
Comet

Downshifting from second to first is not good with out A. Rev matching or B. Depressing the clutch all the way effectively rendering the gears in neutral while the stick is engaged in first. It's not bad to drop from second to neutral, you can do so from any gear to neutral with no problem, on the highways I drop from fifth to neutral and let it coast sometimes, then rev the car in neutral to rev match it when I want to get back in gear.

Not to hijack this thread, but does the boxster have a speed limit into shifting into first? I searched and found nothing, it feels that if I am going over 12mph, I cannot shift into first gear, almost the same as trying to shift into reverse while moving, which I know has a mechanism that prevents reversing.

It's more like below 8mph... won't downshift to 1st from 2nd gear until I'm almost to a dead stop.

Call me old school but I don't see the logic of downshifting to first period. You're either crawling in which case you can manage that in second more smoothly or going to stop which is always the better choice when going back to first. Some people hold the hill with their clutches too, never thought much of that practice either.

Brakes are for slowing, gears are for going!

+1

downshifting through the gears every time you stop is just shifting the wear from your brake pads to your clutch. Personally, I'd rather pay for a brake job given the choice.

Use the clutch for driving and your brakes for stopping

When you say it won't go in to 1st, are you blipping the throttle? RPM changes so quickly with road speed in 1st, it will require you to match the RPM fairly well, or it can effectively "lock out".

I have downshifted to first @ 20-25 MPH while heel-toeing when I'm not stopping completly. It gives a hell of a drive out of the corner! I no longer bother, and just pull 2nd, because that aggressive blip to first feels a bit abusive. When stopping completely, there is no reason to shift into 1st, until you need to take off.

On the best day that's all it's doing, way more likely you're wearing the synchros not a great idea for those who don't lease.

All the time. At a red light or stop sign.:)

Possibly, but I bought the car to have fun! I enjoy few things more than a perfectly executed heel/toe downshift.

Starting from a dead stop causes most clutch wear, proper shifting causes very little. I've been H/T downshifting my '89 pickup for 22 years without a problem! It has close to 200,000 miles, original tansmission, and 1 clutch replacement @ 125,000. And this is with oversized tires, and hard usage in snow/mud.

I drove muscle cars back in the 60's and only down shifted when showing off. Usually I just popped into neutral and braked. Brakes are cheaper than transmissions and replacing a clutch.

Can't imagine any situation where I'd down shift to first except at full stop. What would be the point? If I was to do it, I would definitely match revs.

Wow interesting. I tend to drive by feel and sound so the answers are consistent with what I was thinking then. Shifting to first is pointless unless I am near a crawl and about to pickup speed again. I tend not to downshift to brake/slow excessively tho I might depending on speed of braking and wanting some assistance so I don't slam my brakes. plus it can be a little fun but generally I will downshift to slow to take corners and have the power to come out of them and accelerate. In street driving I tend to brake more while still downshifting with more matchup...

So here is a follow up q based on some responses... Is it really ok to shift to neutral from any gear? Do you have to match revs then? What if i was going 55 in third, saw stoppped traffic went to neutral by simply shifting and braking and did not touch or alter gas or rpms at all?

I would think that simply braking and shifting to neutral from a moderate speed would mean coasting and not being ready to accelerate. I was always taught instead to downshift thru each gear... in general... although first gear as mentioned especially in this car seems pointless unless starting from a dead stop.

Thoughts?
Thanks again! Comet

Btw for the curious here is some info from a thread I found when searching ... This is apparently info from a 99 owners manual. You can search for a thread about "driving below 2800 rpm"...

"The specified maximum rpm figures should not be exceeded when shifting down, exceeding the safe operating limit can result in damamge to the engine.

For smooth shifting, observe observe the following shift points (applies to standard gear ratios only):

Maximum downshifting points

• 5th to 4th ... 120mph/193km/h or 5100rpm
  4th to 3rd ... 84mph/135 km/h or 4700rpm
  3rd to 2nd ... 56mph/90 km/h or 4400rpm
  2nd to 1st ... 35mph/56 km/h or 4000rpm

Minimum upshifting points

• 1st to 2nd ... 15mph/24 km/h or 3000rpm
  2nd to 3rd ... 25mph/40 km/h or 2900rpm
  3rd to 4th ... 40mph/64 km/h or 3100rpm
  4th to 5th ... 45mph/72km/h or 2500rpm"

Good question. First gear is pointless to try and downshift to, especially in the Box S. The gears are too close to hit first before you hit zero mph.

Heel-toe down to second and if you have to start there you can do it just fine, short of a dead stop. The tiptronic (automatic) version has similar gears to our second gear anyway.

1st gear is just to take off from a dead stop or cruising around SLOWLY. Have not found any use for downshifting to it.

When I teach it in performance driving, I suggest using 1st from a dead stop only. You could h/t downshift to 1st while rolling but it is unnecessary input. Minimum input is smooth and smooth is fast.

I use the same logic when approaching a corner going from 5th to 2nd. Instead of busying yourself running through the gears, apply full braking and h/t downshift to select only the gear you need for corner exit. Get your business done and be in the right gear before entering the corner so your foot is on the gas at apex. Minimum input, maximum focus on corner entry. These same techniques work well in traffic at a "less intense" level. Just building and practicing good driving habits that become second nature.

Disclaimer: These are only suggestions. It is your car and ultimately you can shift it any way you want. There will always be different opinions on this. :cheers:

From any gear you can push in the clutch, put the stick in neutral, and let out the clutch without damage to clutch or transmission. Coast for 10 miles, come to a stop, doesn't matter. Putting a MT car in neutral, rolling or stopped, will not harm a transmission.

BTW I second topless comments above. The faster race car drivers I've watched (and raced against) will often skip gears on downshift to corner entry. All they want the downshift for is to make sure they have the right gear/rpm when they hit the gas again. All the decel comes from the brakes.

Thanks all... I tried this yesterday... Much better for driving.

Also tried sticking with higher rpms before shifting up anywhere 3000 to 5000 rpm definitely more fun hehe. But the right to neutral on stopping is much better. Thanks!

The car i got has a a really stiff clutch pedal and i have work slated for that this weekend at dealer...so hopefully new clutch etc etc and I will be all in business in a few days!

How high is that mountain that you can coast in neutral for 10 miles? :dance:

You are right, a properly executed heel and toe downshift will wear the clutch very little, but the operative word is properly executed. An under revved or over revved downshift can wear the clutch more than a launch from a dead stop.

If I see a red light up ahead, or stop sign, and let's say I'm driving in third gear, I just left my foot off the gas and coast, in gear, until I'm going around 10 miles an hour and then just put the car in neutral and stop with the brakes. I don't see the point of downshifting to second, then to first, and putting wear on the synchronizers, which you will unless you double clutch, if you know you are coming to a dead stop.

Since we've somewhat gotten onto this subject anyway, a h/t question, something I've never quite understood:

When you are braking and simultaneously 'blipping' the throttle, is the blip to

(1) rev match engine & transmission (ie you're doing it while the clutch is depressed and you are downshifting---after which you shift your right foot off the brake and back over to the accelerator to give it gas while letting the clutch out), or

(2) rev match the engine & wheels (ie you're doing it as you let the clutch out to accelerate, as in out of a turn)?

I'm guessin' it's (1), since the other suggests you're braking and trying to accelerate at the same time. But (acknowledging it'll wear your synchros faster) it's entirely possible to brake/clutch/down-shift all simultaneously without out blipping the throttle at all, until you start letting the clutch out. Is h/t primarily to save the transmission, or is it actually a faster way of negotiating a turn on a track?

Agree with others, I only downshift to first when I'm in a parking lot.

One thing to note, while you can shift to neutral at any speed - it's not wise to do it much over 25mph. Reason being, if you engine happens to stall, you'll lose power steering & brake assist.

-james

HT downshifting is done on the straight, before you you turn in. The whole time you do this procedure you are on the brakes. You get on the brake, then you put depress the clutch, while you are still pressing on the brake you immediately downshift to the lower gear. With the clutch still depressed, you either roll the top of your foot , or rotate your heal to the accelerator and press down to blip the throttle. As soon as you blip the throttle, you let the clutch out. If you did it right, the car will neither accelerate or decelerate when you let the clutch out, The art of HT is how much you blip the throttle and the instant you let the clutch out.

It takes a lot of practice. When you get it right, its a thing of beauty.

Now if you really want to save your synchros, you have to double clutch downshift, but thats another complicated lesson.

I am new to my 2001 'S' 6 speed and after 3 days of driving I have to concur that downshifting to 1st is rather pointless as its done under 10mph and you are virtually stopped
already, however you must for all the other gears because its fun, sounds good and reminds other drivers that you are driving a sexy SPORT car with a racing heritage not an ecobox lunch bucket with wheels.

Downshifting is fun, saves the brakes and sounds cool. I have driven my MT Jeep wrangler for over 60,000 miles and still have good brake pads left.
I ussually only touch the brakes lightly to indicate to traffic behind that I'm braking, and coming to a complete stop on a slope.

The bliping of throttle to sync the engine/gearbox for a smooth transition in a downshift is an art and will take some time and practice to get it perfect as you learn your engines response time and hear its tone/rpm for the clutch timing but its also part of the fun.

Hearing your engines tone is the best way to time it, in my experience, as the Tach lags and will take your eyes off more important things. Shift indicators are worse than useless and to be ignored (in the jeep at least)

I would never shift to neutral while moving since you don't have control of your car anymore, ie you can not apply power to manuever or downshift or reduce throttle to brake, plus the gearbox and engine speeds get way out of sync and it will take more time to spool up when you want to go again.
Just downshift or keep the clutch depressed so the syncro can do its work.

Topless is giving you good advise. Work on heel-toe, it will make you a smoother and safer driver.

Tag this onto the good advise, buy a cheap barely running beater manual to practice on. Tearing up a Porsche box on the learning curve is an expensive education, you don't get too many oopsies where as the 50's era VW I learned on could be nearly brutalized and still shift.

If you rev match your downshifts, you won't wear the clutch.

I'd forgotten just how much stress downshifts put on the clutch when you don't rev match until recently when I was in a GT-86 with a guy trying to drive fast but couldn't could heel and toe or even rev match on coast down. It was painful for the clutch and also upset the balance of the car horribly.

No wonder some people tear through a clutch in 40k and others see theirs last 150k. Even a fairly poor attempt at heel and toe is less wear on the clutch than not trying.

Brakes to slow, clutch/gears to go.

Use the clutch as little as possible and when you do, rev match. There's no point in downshifting sequentially, a 5-2 h/t downshift is the perfect answer.

Feel free to shift to neutral from any gear and coast/come to a stop using only the brakes. Saves wear and tear on the clutch and transmission. And if you're worried about losing power steering/power brakes, fix your engine because it shouldn't just cut out randomly.

Driving a Porsche with a bad 2nd gear synchronizer will cure you of any desire to downshift when coming to a stop. It has been a great exercise that taught me to use the brakes and not the gearbox to slow the car. I find I drive a lot further into a braking zone when I am not rowing down through the gears.

+1, old school here also.

this

2nd goes down to ~8mph. By then it's time to use the brakes

I do not down shift if I'm braking to stop. Otherwise I do downshift (even inti 1st) if the road condition dictates it. Try to downshift and fully engaged before going into the turn.

I downshift out of habit, but then I also costantly heal and toe out of habit. I can down shift into first any speed that is possible in that gear. My S will easily top 40mph in first, and there are turns that are tight enough to warrant the down shift. If you know what you are doing, it puts very little stress on the tranny/clutch...

All good ADVICE, lol!

Yeah, it bugs me. :)

Yup, I bought my Box with a heavy clutch on 70k. Local shop insisted it would go at any moment. Have been rev matching all my shifts and 30k later, the clutch is still going - and despite plenty of driving in stop start driving. It's non rev-matched downshifts that really wear out clutches.

Thus when you see these cars with clutch changes well under 100k, you know they haven't been driven properly.